No Treaty of Verdun, only one Heir to the Carolingian Throne

Darkest · Jul 9, 2005

What if Louis the Pious only had one son with his wife Ermengarde? Let's say it is Lothair, his first son, and his other sons die at childbirth. No three-way war, no Treaty of Verdun, no division of what would become France, Italy, and Germany.

I know its hard to say what this would mean to history, being in the 9th century and all, but, let's try at least. What would be the immediate effects and the long-term effects (though it could go in hundreds of directions after Lothair has children).

fhaessig · Jul 10, 2005

The problem is that the empire would then be dismembered by the next generation, the caroligian successions laws/customs being what they were. In order to avoid this, you need a have succession of only heirs, until the pattern is established. Unlikely but not impossible ( look for exemple at how many french kings in succession had a son ).

Darkest · Jul 10, 2005

Oh, that's fine. Let the empire be dismembered, if it is going to be. I just want to know what would happen if there was only one son to Louis the Pious, and the Treaty of Verdun never happened.

What is interesting is that maybe, by the next generation, things will have changed to a point of removing France, Germany and Italy from Europe. Instead, maybe Lothair has two sons, four sons, or five. How will he divide the empire in such a way, instead of three ways?

wkwillis · Jul 10, 2005

Italy, France, Iberia, Germany? The fifth son invades Britain to get his own country?

Hermanubis · Jul 10, 2005

wkwillis said:
Iberia,

Just the County of Barcelona at this point…

Archangel Michael · Jul 10, 2005

wkwillis said:
The fifth son invades Britain to get his own country?

Lothair I died in 855, and England became a unified country in 871 under Alfred the Great.

Faeelin · Jul 10, 2005

fhaessig said:
The problem is that the empire would then be dismembered by the next generation, the caroligian successions laws/customs being what they were. In order to avoid this, you need a have succession of only heirs, until the pattern is established. Unlikely but not impossible ( look for exemple at how many french kings in succession had a son ).

True, but even so, Louis planned on having the other sons act as viceroys for the one Emperor. This plan only fell through after he had a son by his second wife.

The very artificial nature of the kingdoms was to impress how there were many kings, there was only one Emperor.

benedict XVII · Jul 10, 2005

Darkest90 said:
Oh, that's fine. Let the empire be dismembered, if it is going to be. I just want to know what would happen if there was only one son to Louis the Pious, and the Treaty of Verdun never happened.

What is interesting is that maybe, by the next generation, things will have changed to a point of removing France, Germany and Italy from Europe. Instead, maybe Lothair has two sons, four sons, or five. How will he divide the empire in such a way, instead of three ways?

But you had many kingdoms at other generations: Provence, Burgundy, Saxony, etc. You could also go back to Merovingian Kingdoms: Aquitaine; Austrasia, Neustria,...