No Switzerland ?

What if the Confederation of Three Cantons collapses before it grows ? How would it have affect the History of the World ...

The German-speaking cantons of Switzerland could very easily become the westernmost appendage of the Habsburg realm - hell, the Habsburgs originally came from Aargau. But I doubt they'd try to expand towards the French-speaking lands as OTL Switzerland did; it'd be hard enough to hold on to the Swiss Alps, given their terrain.
 
German speaking cantons might be domain of Habsburgs. Perhaps we see even Germany united by Habsburgs but without Switzerland Europe probably whole world would be pretty unrecognsible.
 
German speaking cantons might be domain of Habsburgs. Perhaps we see even Germany united by Habsburgs but without Switzerland Europe probably whole world would be pretty unrecognsible.

Well, we have no Swiss mercenaries, no Swiss Gard, no Geneva to sign conventions, no self aware Romandia ...
 
The Hapsburgs retain their native castle and estates. France and Italy may be larger, if the latter even still emerges. Maybe Savoy fills the void and Neuchatel remains independent. I think we see even more use of Swiss mercenaries as the backwater domains would present only limited opportunities for boisterous young men, and central authority will at times be more nominal than effective.
 
Perhaps Luxembourg serves as the neutral state TTL? Switzerland afterall was only neutral following its post Napoleon restoration.
The existence of Luxemburg is basicly an accident of history. Since no Switserland would mean a POD in the 17th century I would say that there is a very big chance Luxemburg will never become an independent country.
 
The existence of Luxemburg is basicly an accident of history. Since no Switserland would mean a POD in the 17th century I would say that there is a very big chance Luxemburg will never become an independent country.
Probably an earlier POD since it was only recognised at Westphalia but existed since c1300. Such an earlier POD means a lot of things are possible depending how history goes. Switzerland may have had an extra chance owing to being in the mountains.
 
The existence of Luxemburg is basicly an accident of history. Since no Switserland would mean a POD in the 17th century I would say that there is a very big chance Luxemburg will never become an independent country.

I was talking about the very first Switzerland-like state, with 3 cantons (apparently there is only a French wikipedia page for this one, but I guess it will be in the "Swiss History" page in English ...) it's more between 1291 and 1332.
 
The existence of Luxemburg is basicly an accident of history. Since no Switserland would mean a POD in the 17th century I would say that there is a very big chance Luxemburg will never become an independent country.

How so? The county of Luxemburg existed from the 10th century, it was bumped up to a duchy in 1353. The modern Luxembourg is a lot smaller than the medieval county/duchy, having lost land to France, Germany and Belgium. But to say that it won't become an independent country presupposes that its swallowing up by the dukes of Burgundy and later the Habsburgs is inevitable. Luxemburg could just as easily swallow the Burgundian territories, or just remain an independent state of the Low Countries a la the bishopric of Liege.

Switzerland (according to wiki) has a traditional foundation date of 1291, so I think to call Luxembourg a historical accident and not Switzerland (or any other country in Europe, for that matter), is a little unfair. Besides, IIRC wasn't Switzerland only organized as a single country (I'm not talking about the various alliances and unions between te cantons) after Napoléon at the Congress of Vienna? Before that it was sort of similar to Italy or Germany, with the name being a geographical expression for the non-monarchical void in the middle of Europe, than an actual country (in the same sense as say, England or France were a country).
 
Well, you have some "accidents of History" some work very well, like France (no really, look at France, it's composed of bits of Flandres, of Germany, of Vascony, of Catalonia, of Italy, of Switzerland, of Scandinavia (well, I consider Normandy like that >.>) ... it is totally artificial and still people feel like they are French !), that's the same for Switzerland, it's weird, but it works so ... anyway. But Germany or Italy are no accidents of history, they are things that were going to happen anyway, because of their culture ...
 
Well, you have some "accidents of History" some work very well, like France (no really, look at France, it's composed of bits of Flandres, of Germany, of Vascony, of Catalonia, of Italy, of Switzerland, of Scandinavia (well, I consider Normandy like that >.>) ... it is totally artificial and still people feel like they are French !), that's the same for Switzerland, it's weird, but it works so ... anyway. But Germany or Italy are no accidents of history, they are things that were going to happen anyway, because of their culture ...

Yes, in France is several different languages and dialects and it is almost miracle that there is so huge France. Existence of unified Germany was probably inevitable since Middle Ages but I think that unification of Italy became really inevitable only just after Napoleon's days. Italy was very diversed with several local languages. With good POD in Italy could be easily 3 - 4 independent nations. Perhaps even five if you try really hard.
 
Yes, in France is several different languages and dialects and it is almost miracle that there is so huge France. Existence of unified Germany was probably inevitable since Middle Ages but I think that unification of Italy became really inevitable only just after Napoleon's days. Italy was very diversed with several local languages. With good POD in Italy could be easily 3 - 4 independent nations. Perhaps even five if you try really hard.

Even as late as the mid-19th century, there were plans to establish six separate states in Italy, with the House of Savoy only reigning over the far north of the peninsula.

800px-Italia_di_Plombières.jpg
 
Well, you have some "accidents of History" some work very well, like France (no really, look at France, it's composed of bits of Flandres, of Germany, of Vascony, of Catalonia, of Italy, of Switzerland, of Scandinavia (well, I consider Normandy like that >.>) ... it is totally artificial and still people feel like they are French !), that's the same for Switzerland, it's weird, but it works so ... anyway. But Germany or Italy are no accidents of history, they are things that were going to happen anyway, because of their culture ...
It's hard to say that Germany, especially in its modern borders, is any less artificial than France. By the way, France has been around as country for a few centuries, albeit not always as centralized and often smaller... Germany or Italy well... not quite in the same way. A medieval observer would be very surprised that "Austria" and "the Netherlands" are now regarded as "not-Germany", let alone that Berlin is the German capital, but would not be surprised to same extent in seeing Aquitaine and parts of Flanders integrated into a France centered on Paris.
You may argue that Italy is a geographical unit defined by the Alps, it's a lot harder to say so about Germany or France.
 
It's hard to say that Germany, especially in its modern borders, is any less artificial than France. By the way, France has been around as country for a few centuries, albeit not always as centralized and often smaller... Germany or Italy well... not quite in the same way. A medieval observer would be very surprised that "Austria" and "the Netherlands" are now regarded as "not-Germany", let alone that Berlin is the German capital, but would not be surprised to same extent in seeing Aquitaine and parts of Flanders integrated into a France centered on Paris.
You may argue that Italy is a geographical unit defined by the Alps, it's a lot harder to say so about Germany or France.

Of course, German borders are artificial, even if we only talk about "purely German" places we lack Teuton's Prussia, Bolzano, Austria, Alsace, and some cities in Belgium and Switzerland, but this "artificial country" debate, even if very interesting, is getting us off-topic
 
I personally wouldn't consider Normandy to be anything like Scandinavia the majority of the population was Frankish/Gallic in Origin and at least a quarter of the nobility was of Frankish/Gallic origin.
And for Gascony/Vascony if I remember correctly it was always at least nominally a vassal of the Frankish then French king kind of the same for Flanders.

And for the no Switzerland it changes a lot of things, maybe we could see Savoy expanding their influence in the area even more in the long term?
 
It's hard to say that Germany, especially in its modern borders, is any less artificial than France. By the way, France has been around as country for a few centuries, albeit not always as centralized and often smaller... Germany or Italy well... not quite in the same way. A medieval observer would be very surprised that "Austria" and "the Netherlands" are now regarded as "not-Germany", let alone that Berlin is the German capital, but would not be surprised to same extent in seeing Aquitaine and parts of Flanders integrated into a France centered on Paris.
You may argue that Italy is a geographical unit defined by the Alps, it's a lot harder to say so about Germany or France.

And even then, despite the Alps acting as a very clearly defined natural border, the Italian states were not that unified, either; hell, the Savoy realm could've easily become part of France with the right POD. What we now know as Italian and/or German identity has its roots in the Middle Ages, but they are roots that were allowed to grow; one could easily argue that the peoples of Scandinavia are close enough in their culture and language that, if Scandinavia had unified, today an united Scandinavia would be regarded as a development as "obvious" as an united France, too.
 
And even then, despite the Alps acting as a very clearly defined natural border, the Italian states were not that unified, either; hell, the Savoy realm could've easily become part of France with the right POD. What we now know as Italian and/or German identity has its roots in the Middle Ages, but they are roots that were allowed to grow; one could easily argue that the peoples of Scandinavia are close enough in their culture and language that, if Scandinavia had unified, today an united Scandinavia would be regarded as a development as "obvious" as an united France, too.

Precisely. There are no "natural" nations, and this even applies when there is a shared language (witness US and Canada for instance, or Germany and Austria again) or a clear geographic boundary such as the Alps, the Pyrenees or even the sea (heck, Northern Ireland).
 
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