How badly would RAF fighter command have been affected if the air ministry had decided to concentrate on only one standard fighter type for the RAF; the hurricane rather than the spitfire, leaving R.J. Mitchell's masterpiece stillborn?
No Spitfire
- Thread starter EAF602Whizz
- Start date
While I absolutely LOVE the Spitfire, the difference wouldn't be that large from OTL, IMO. While the Spit gained all the glory, the Hurricane bore the brunt of the Battle of Britain OTL. ITTL they bear the whole load, but assuming production numbers are still high they still hold out and win the Battle. Gladiators bore the brunt of the Med war at first, so that stays effectively OTL until the BoB ends and Huris are sent in rather than Spits...where they do great against the Italians and hold their own against the Germans.
After that, neither the Spit or Huri have the legs for escort, so basically they sit out the war for the most part until *Overlord, and by then the Typhoon/Tempest analog is coming on line to replace the Huri.
Pacific war goes pretty much as OTL, the Huri being only slightly more disadvantaged than the Spit against the Zero until tactics catch up.
Effectively OTL, IMO.
After that, neither the Spit or Huri have the legs for escort, so basically they sit out the war for the most part until *Overlord, and by then the Typhoon/Tempest analog is coming on line to replace the Huri.
Pacific war goes pretty much as OTL, the Huri being only slightly more disadvantaged than the Spit against the Zero until tactics catch up.
Effectively OTL, IMO.
I agree entirely. That's pretty much how I saw things. Possibly more fighters would be available because hurricanes are easier to produce than spitfires and all the production would be geared towards hurricanes. Supermarine might concentrate on their bomber design more.
The battle of France/Britain same as our timeline with few differences.
The 1941 period saw Hurricanes holding the line in the Med, including Malta, but I think the Channel front might have been a bit different. Hurricane MkIIs might not have dealt so well with the policy of 'leaning forward' against the latest 109Fs. Once the FW190 appears forget it.
Burma and the desert would be the same as OTL in 1942 although the first spits arrived in Egypt and Malta that year. Might there have been another interim type bridging the gap between the Hurricane and Typhoon? Or perhaps a modified Hurricane that would take the design to it's limits?
The battle of France/Britain same as our timeline with few differences.
The 1941 period saw Hurricanes holding the line in the Med, including Malta, but I think the Channel front might have been a bit different. Hurricane MkIIs might not have dealt so well with the policy of 'leaning forward' against the latest 109Fs. Once the FW190 appears forget it.
Burma and the desert would be the same as OTL in 1942 although the first spits arrived in Egypt and Malta that year. Might there have been another interim type bridging the gap between the Hurricane and Typhoon? Or perhaps a modified Hurricane that would take the design to it's limits?
Makes sense to me. The ATL cross-channel fighter raids will be "less profitable" for the Brits, particularly once JG.26 upgrades to the 190s, but that had only limited strategic value compared to the American escort fighters. In the mean time to plug the gap perhaps the UK lend-leases or liscense-builds Jugs? The original Mustang was meant as a Tomahawk substitution...perhaps they just adopt the Mustang?
A few interesting proposed variants on here: http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/PROJECTS.HTM
How early would the Allison engined Mustang be ready though? I can see more Tomahawks being used but again not as good as the 109F. The P39 might be looked at more closely as well perhaps, although by that time the Typhoon was starting to enter service.
Hmm, not sure about any of those although I like them for what they are. I think only the Hurricane comes close to filling the gap left by the spitfire.
Sior
Banned
The Miles looks the better bet with more scope for development.
the M.20 prototype was faster than the Hurricane but slower than the Spitfire types then in production, but carried more ammunition and had greater range than either.
I think the effectiveness of the Spitfire in the BoB is underestimated here so far.
By giving to the faster Spits the task of tangling with the 109s the Hurris were able to concentrate on the bombers, without the Spits they would be less safe from being bounced, and less able to challenge the 109s when their best performance was at 15,000 ft - where the bombers were.
I think the Gloster f.5/34 would have made a useful companion to the Hurricane i.e. instead of the Gladiator, certainly not in comparison with the Spitfire.
The best alternative that may have arisen, would be the Boulton-Paul P.94 - a single-seat Defiant.
By giving to the faster Spits the task of tangling with the 109s the Hurris were able to concentrate on the bombers, without the Spits they would be less safe from being bounced, and less able to challenge the 109s when their best performance was at 15,000 ft - where the bombers were.
I think the Gloster f.5/34 would have made a useful companion to the Hurricane i.e. instead of the Gladiator, certainly not in comparison with the Spitfire.
The best alternative that may have arisen, would be the Boulton-Paul P.94 - a single-seat Defiant.
I agree with you Merlin about the effectiveness of the spitfire, a fantastic and much loved aircraft. I certainly love it. In this scenario the RAF have to make do with only one fighter though and it's the Hurricane so the Spitfire's out and all the also rans, good though some of them might have been, are also out.
I think the extra Hurricanes would have coped during the battle, tangling with the 109s and the heavier types. They did in OTL anyway. There was no real attempt to coordinate attacks in the way that's been presented, i.e. Spitfires engage the escorts while the Hurricane boys get the bombers sorted out. This might have happened sometimes but I don't think it was tactical doctrine. It might have occured on occasion because the Hurricanes weren't able to climb as fast as the Spitfires for example.
What about an interim Hurricane based on some of the ideas at the link I posted above? Would the Bristol Hercules engine offer any advantage over the Merlin? I especially like the idea of the cut down rear fuselage and improved visibility canopy.
I think the extra Hurricanes would have coped during the battle, tangling with the 109s and the heavier types. They did in OTL anyway. There was no real attempt to coordinate attacks in the way that's been presented, i.e. Spitfires engage the escorts while the Hurricane boys get the bombers sorted out. This might have happened sometimes but I don't think it was tactical doctrine. It might have occured on occasion because the Hurricanes weren't able to climb as fast as the Spitfires for example.
What about an interim Hurricane based on some of the ideas at the link I posted above? Would the Bristol Hercules engine offer any advantage over the Merlin? I especially like the idea of the cut down rear fuselage and improved visibility canopy.
The Hawker Sirocco's viability would depend on an earlier development of Hercules by the Bristol board of directors, and an earlier acknowledgement of the viability of the thin, broad chord elliptical wing as eventually employed on Tempest, by Sir Sydney Camm. Perhaps Supermarine's aerodynamicist worked for Hawker and caught Sydney having illicit sex with Sopwith's daughter. Otherwise not likely before the scheduled advent of Hurricane II's, post BoB.
Incidentally, the Hurricane for bombers, Spit for fighters, was tactical doctrine on those occasions when the Me's cooperated.
Incidentally, the Hurricane for bombers, Spit for fighters, was tactical doctrine on those occasions when the Me's cooperated.
I like your Hawker Scirroco. Could we call it the hurriphoon? 
And I stand corrected on the RAF's fighter doctrine. I thought what you described was more of a post battle journalistic invention.
Did you notice the Griffon engined hurricane on the weblink I posted earlier?
And I stand corrected on the RAF's fighter doctrine. I thought what you described was more of a post battle journalistic invention.
Did you notice the Griffon engined hurricane on the weblink I posted earlier?
PS, what did Sopwith's daughter look like? I'm all alone in a signal box with 5 hours still to go.
Given the urgency and the percieved necessity for a modern fighter, its very likely that the Boulton-Paul fighter is chosen as the second fighter to mass produce (since this was seen as inferior to the Spitfire, it wasnt proceeded in OTL)
However the RAF know that there are issues with the Hurricane with regard to limits in speed and performance, so its likely they issue the 37 spec earlier to get a replacement in development asap. They may well go for a number using different engines (as hapenned in OTL)
So we may see an early Tornado with a Hercules or even a Centaurus engine, probably one with a Sabre as well, and at least one and probably 2 other designs using those engines or the Griffon or Merlin.
By this point funding is much less of an issue, so I'd expect at least 3 prototypes, probably each using at least 2 different engine models, so giving a much better possibility one would make a good aircraft.
One other option would have been to persevere with the Whirlwind - either by fixing the Peregrine issues, or reworking a version using merlins (now THAT would have been a fast plane..!!)
However the RAF know that there are issues with the Hurricane with regard to limits in speed and performance, so its likely they issue the 37 spec earlier to get a replacement in development asap. They may well go for a number using different engines (as hapenned in OTL)
So we may see an early Tornado with a Hercules or even a Centaurus engine, probably one with a Sabre as well, and at least one and probably 2 other designs using those engines or the Griffon or Merlin.
By this point funding is much less of an issue, so I'd expect at least 3 prototypes, probably each using at least 2 different engine models, so giving a much better possibility one would make a good aircraft.
One other option would have been to persevere with the Whirlwind - either by fixing the Peregrine issues, or reworking a version using merlins (now THAT would have been a fast plane..!!)
It seems there are lots of alternative choices if the spitfire fails to reach production. I like the defiant and it's always looked to me as if it could have been developed a lot more. I also like the whirlwind and the Miles m20 and the....The FAA got wildcats in late 1940, can you see the RAF acquiring denavalised wildcats? Good range for escort work, tough too.
I'm not sure they'd need either the Whirlwind or a land based Wildcat
RAF
Hurricane (1939-43)
Miles M.20 (1940-41)
P40 (1941-42)
Mosquito (1942-45)
Typhoon (1942-45)
Tempest (1943-45)
Meteor (1944-5)
FAA
Gladiator (1939-41)
Wildcat (1941-43)
Hellcat (1943-45)
Corsair (1944-45)
Sea Fury (1945)
Doesn't look like a bad OOB at all - mostly pug-ugly but effective (honourable exceptions to Mosquito and Sea Fury)
RAF
Hurricane (1939-43)
Miles M.20 (1940-41)
P40 (1941-42)
Mosquito (1942-45)
Typhoon (1942-45)
Tempest (1943-45)
Meteor (1944-5)
FAA
Gladiator (1939-41)
Wildcat (1941-43)
Hellcat (1943-45)
Corsair (1944-45)
Sea Fury (1945)
Doesn't look like a bad OOB at all - mostly pug-ugly but effective (honourable exceptions to Mosquito and Sea Fury)
The Miles Monster corrects wing deficiencies by using Mossie outer wing airfoil and thickness/chord ratio. Retractable undercarriage from Yakovlev. Simple, strong, like bull, smart, like streetcar. Zephyr uses Bristol Orion engine. 18 cylinders of Hercules, or twinned Perseus. The ugly Whirlwind has undertray for cannons, to eliminate muzzle flash blindness, and greater range.
I like your Hawker Scirroco. Could we call it the hurriphoon?
And I stand corrected on the RAF's fighter doctrine. I thought what you described was more of a post battle journalistic invention.
Did you notice the Griffon engined hurricane on the weblink I posted earlier?
You may call it a Hurrempest. I noticed a Hercules Hurricane but didn't notice the Griffon Hurri. The problem with the Hurricane was the wing. Not built for speed. Attempts were made to fit the Merlin 60 series, but the performance was never published. The Griffon seemed a plausible marriage for a Hurribomber.