No Soviet Pilots in North Korean or Chinese Uniforms.

Lets say Stalin in the early 50's is feeling less sneaky and cunning(even for ole Joe). He chooses not to send those Ace and Veteran Russian pilots to Korea where they flew the Mig-15 in Chinese and North Korean uniforms. Forbbiden to speak Russian over their radios in flight..

Without these top pilots from the USSR and thus the Mig 15 in far far less adept hands..

How does this influence the outcome of the war?
 
the MiG-15 is viewed as a clunker and the west doesn't develop the healthy respect for Soviet Aeronautics that it did in OTL.
 
Lets say Stalin in the early 50's is feeling less sneaky and cunning(even for ole Joe). He chooses not to send those Ace and Veteran Russian pilots to Korea where they flew the Mig-15 in Chinese and North Korean uniforms. Forbbiden to speak Russian over their radios in flight..

Without these top pilots from the USSR and thus the Mig 15 in far far less adept hands..

How does this influence the outcome of the war?

Not much on the whole, but the "Century Series" jets would be delayed, as it would have been believed that the Sabre would have been more than adequate. More resources wasted on B-29s bombing targets of little value too, probably.
 
Can I ask why they are less adept hands? North Korean's flew many of the Mig's in the war. It was not like every North Korean pilot was "5 o'clock charlie," as OTL the Soviets sent in pilots, planes and training for the Chinese and Koreans. I suspect if the Russians never flew then the training would still get in. Were the North Korean tank crews in T-34's inept? I think the rate they moved, in the amount of time they did is proof that North Korea had a perfectly capable army given the equipment they had, and what they expected to go up against.
 
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The problem is that training alone doesn't cut it, certainly not in the early days of a conflict. Fighter combat is one field where a small cadre of highly motivated and skilled individuals can make a huge difference. Creating a cadre like that takes years, and the majority of people cycled through any training program, even the best, will turn out sub-ace. That means for every Soviet ace not flying, you'll have not one, but numerous Korean and Chinese novices getting themselves swatted. Not to mention the morale effect of having these people to watch your back and teach you the ropes in real life.

Over time, you'd see the quality of the pilots rise significantly if the training regime is any good. But by that time, the US Air Force is likely to have developed an attitude of overconfidence already.
 

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Can I ask why they are less adept hands? North Korean's flew many of the Mig's in the war. It was not like every North Korean pilot was "5 o'clock charlie," as OTL the Soviets sent in pilots, planes and training for the Chinese and Koreans. I suspect if the Russians never flew then the training would still get in. Were the North Korean tank crews in T-34's inept? I think the rate they moved, in the amount of time they did is proof that North Korea had a perfectly capable army given the equipment they had, and what they expected to go up against.

I have to agree. While the Soviet pilots, many of them aces from the Great Patriotic War, were a cut above anything that the PRC or NK could put up simply from combat experience, there were still some very skilled pilots from both countries. These men were more than capable of demonstrating that the F-86 wasn't an overwhelming presence in the sky.

One of the things that is sometimes forgotten is that the USAF never wanted to be ahead, they wanted to be a total overmatch. This is a reflection of both the sensitivity to casualties (or concern for human life, depending on your perspective) and the fact that it was clear that American foces would always be outnumbered. The Air Force didn't always succeed, but that was/is always the goal.
 
Can I ask why they are less adept hands? North Korean's flew many of the Mig's in the war. It was not like every North Korean pilot was "5 o'clock charlie,"
Nothing inherently wrong with Chinese and N. Korean pilots, but it just takes time to make a fighter pilot out of illiterate farmer. Soviet Union tried to pull this trick in 1930s and results were mixed (even with wood-and-canvas fighter planes of the day). Soviet attitude changed so much that even in 1941, when USSR's survival was seen as being on the end of a lifeline and everything had been thrown in the war cauldron to stop Nazi advance, fighter pilot schools were mostly untouched and went on with training.

BTW, are you guys aware that USSR (contrary to popular Western delusion) did not maintain elite fighter force in Korea? Instead they used it as sort of graduating school for trained, but not battle-experienced pilots, who flew in mixed formations with relatively few Soviet aces.
 
Can I ask why they are less adept hands? North Korean's flew many of the Mig's in the war. It was not like every North Korean pilot was "5 o'clock charlie," as OTL the Soviets sent in pilots, planes and training for the Chinese and Koreans. I suspect if the Russians never flew then the training would still get in. Were the North Korean tank crews in T-34's inept? I think the rate they moved, in the amount of time they did is proof that North Korea had a perfectly capable army given the equipment they had, and what they expected to go up against.

A Soviet World War II veteran pilot who had endured the vicious ariel combat on the Eastern Front was far, far superior to a Chinese or North Korean pilot with a few months of training.
 
Can I ask why they are less adept hands? North Korean's flew many of the Mig's in the war. It was not like every North Korean pilot was "5 o'clock charlie," as OTL the Soviets sent in pilots, planes and training for the Chinese and Koreans. I suspect if the Russians never flew then the training would still get in. Were the North Korean tank crews in T-34's inept? I think the rate they moved, in the amount of time they did is proof that North Korea had a perfectly capable army given the equipment they had, and what they expected to go up against.


The North Korean and Chinese Pilots had basically no experience in aerial combat of their own to start with, plus it is hard to learn on the go when the your opponent has alot of combat experience as did the USAF. I never said the N. Korean and Chinese pilots were not any good.

But as has been said before the Russian pilots had several years of high level combat experience from WWII. They were trained on the fine points of the MIG-15. Also the Russian Pilots knew alot more about air combat tactics in general.

Flying a Mig-15 and a driving T-34 are very different. The North Korean tank crews were good, but then again they did not have much to go against on the ground at first in 1950. The UN forces on the Korean Pennisula at the start of the war were rather light.
 
I really have to fault many of the logic being used here. If I were to say that Japanese aces would always win over American troops recently trained people would call me mad. Yet when the war started Japan had a large group of experinced pilots and the US was lacking. A training program evened the odds. I see Korea as a similar example, yes the US has a good solid pool of fighters, but get enough men in the air and the Mig will show itself off to be a very good fighter, and the Chinese and Koreans as good pilots.

Training does not require experince on the learners part, only on the teachers. If the Soviets trained the North Koreans to fly Mig's we would be seeing Mig Alley appear as we did OTL. An experinced pilot can do a lot of damage, but a trained pilot can be just as effective.
 
I really have to fault many of the logic being used here. If I were to say that Japanese aces would always win over American troops recently trained people would call me mad. Yet when the war started Japan had a large group of experinced pilots and the US was lacking. A training program evened the odds. I see Korea as a similar example, yes the US has a good solid pool of fighters, but get enough men in the air and the Mig will show itself off to be a very good fighter, and the Chinese and Koreans as good pilots.

Training does not require experince on the learners part, only on the teachers. If the Soviets trained the North Koreans to fly Mig's we would be seeing Mig Alley appear as we did OTL. An experinced pilot can do a lot of damage, but a trained pilot can be just as effective.

Look at the way combat deaths went in the aerial battles of '41 and '42. And the US Air Force had already run an intensive training programme since '39 and could call on a cadre of citizens who had trained and gained experience with the RAF. Not to mention massive numerical superiority very early in the war. North Korea had none of these advantages, and the Chinese PLAAF wasn't exactly a venerable institution at that point, either. So expect a similar learning curve, with the pilot cadre doing very poorly against the Americans initially, slowly improving, and eventually posing a serious threat. I don't think that will galvanise the USAF into rethinking strategic approaches the way their bruising encounters with MiG aces OTL did.
 
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