No Saint Augustine

Let's say Augustine of Hippo continues to be a follower of Mani. What would Christanity be like without his influence?
 

OS fan

Banned
Orthodox Christianity would change less than you may expect - the language of the church was Greek, and Augustine wrote in Latin. Catholicism, on the other hand...
 
Without Augustine, Eastern Orthodoxy would be very little affected, but Catholicism would be quite different indeed. Here in the West Augustine is usually seen as the Church Father par excellence, without him its possible that Western theology comes to rely more heavily on the other Great Western Fathers like Hilary, Phoebadius, and Ambrose. This may mean that the filioque clause is avoided, but it's important to remember that most of Augustine's ideas did not come out of a vacuum, and it's entirely possible someone else will propose it. However, without Augustine certain heresies like Pelagianism might be harder to stamp out, and could persist for much longer. This could create division in the Western Church theologically, with the Papacy steadily coming to rely more on Eastern theology if the Eastern Empire can hold on to Rome. The Schism might be avoided, although the absence of Augustine will not change the claims the papacy makes for itself.

In my opinion, no Augustine will mean a lack of a dominant theological paradigm in the West, which will mean that heresies like Arianism and Pelagianism will be able to hold on longer and may even become entrenched in parts of Western Europe. The papacy will probably look to Byzantium for protection, and so long as it's loyal the emperors probably won't mind indulging some of its claims as head of the Church. In my opinion a schism is inevitable, there were just too many contradictory ideas floating around, but it may be more Northern Europe/Mediterranean than East/West.
 

Kosta

Banned
Orthodox Christianity would change less than you may expect - the language of the church was Greek, and Augustine wrote in Latin. Catholicism, on the other hand...

I know no one gives two shits what I say around here, but I agree with the initial two posters completely. Without a Saint Augustine, it'd put the East in a less awkward position of declaring a saint whose views are also declared problematic to our theology.
 
I know no one gives two shits what I say around here, but I agree with the initial two posters completely. Without a Saint Augustine, it'd put the East in a less awkward position of declaring a saint whose views are also declared problematic to our theology.

I still love you.

When are you going to post about the Greek Immigrants in French Canada?

Also what about the Donatists?
 

Kosta

Banned
I still love you.

When are you going to post about the Greek Immigrants in French Canada?

Also what about the Donatists?

Ha! If I wasn't so lightheaded right now I'd be blushing right now.

Greek-Corsicans, mind you :D. I'll try for this weekend; I just hope I don't get as much homework as last weekend!

Ooh, now they were some hardcore fellows right there. They survived centuries after Blessed Saint Augustine, but as far as I've read, he argued with them day and night. According to Orthodox Wiki, they would have won if not for him, which I was not aware of until now. So barring some other great theologian that could rise from the fertile hotbed of religious rhetoric, they might turn the tide in Carthage and Northwest Africa. Hilarity might ensue.
 
Ooh, now [the Donatists] were some hardcore fellows right there. They survived centuries after Blessed Saint Augustine, but as far as I've read, he argued with them day and night. According to Orthodox Wiki, they would have won if not for him, which I was not aware of until now. So barring some other great theologian that could rise from the fertile hotbed of religious rhetoric, they might turn the tide in Carthage and Northwest Africa. Hilarity might ensue.

One of the reasons Coptic Christianity survived so well through the ages was because of its entrenched tradition both in the populace, the episcopacy, and monastically. Without the Donatists having to fight Augustine, the local hierarcy might not have been decimated and remained a formidable force in North Africa for a longer period of time; as a result of this there might be a greater chance of that movement not only surviving into the seventh century but withstanding the Islamic invasion. Our present day might end up with a heretical Christian minority (10-20%) scattered throughout northern Africa.

This poses other butterflies on the cultural, linguistic, etc. lines; it also makes for the perception of Africa different to western Europe. Would it be viewed more favorably post-Islamic invasion or would the heretics be simply slighted? Would the Donatists eventually seek to regain communion with Rome? That would change a lot geopolitically.
 

Kosta

Banned
One of the reasons Coptic Christianity survived so well through the ages was because of its entrenched tradition both in the populace, the episcopacy, and monastically. Without the Donatists having to fight Augustine, the local hierarcy might not have been decimated and remained a formidable force in North Africa for a longer period of time; as a result of this there might be a greater chance of that movement not only surviving into the seventh century but withstanding the Islamic invasion. Our present day might end up with a heretical Christian minority (10-20%) scattered throughout northern Africa.

This poses other butterflies on the cultural, linguistic, etc. lines; it also makes for the perception of Africa different to western Europe. Would it be viewed more favorably post-Islamic invasion or would the heretics be simply slighted? Would the Donatists eventually seek to regain communion with Rome? That would change a lot geopolitically.


So do you think that eventually Donatism would be part-and-parcel with the Christian North African culture and the African Romance language?

Personally, I feel like that while the Caliphate might not go out of its way to destroy Donatism or Christianity in general just like it didn't OTL, they might certainly strive to keep the Donatists from uniting with any sort of Patriarchate in the territory of a foreign power. Hell, they might even encourage Chalcedonian Christians left in North Africa to convert to Donatism, just like the Ottomans let Orthodox Christians and W. Roman Catholics convert to Protestantism and Unitarianism OTL.
 
So do you think that eventually Donatism would be part-and-parcel with the Christian North African culture and the African Romance language?

I fail to see why not. I understand the major differences, but after all this proposal is in many ways parallel to what happened in Egypt.

Personally, I feel like that while the Caliphate might not go out of its way to destroy Donatism or Christianity in general just like it didn't OTL, they might certainly strive to keep the Donatists from uniting with any sort of Patriarchate in the territory of a foreign power. Hell, they might even encourage Chalcedonian Christians left in North Africa to convert to Donatism, just like the Ottomans let Orthodox Christians and W. Roman Catholics convert to Protestantism and Unitarianism OTL.

Even in the areas the Caliphs sought to destroy or minimize Christianity, it still survived to some degree. Reuniting with a Patriarchate (likely Rome but just maybe Alexandria) would be further down the road. It may even be something that only happens in the 19th or 20th centuries, like some branches of the Assyrian, Syriac, and Levantine churches did. By that point in history, having these churches "unite" is no threat to the Islamic majority.
 
Calvin

Hmm instead of Donatism surviving as a separate entity I would see the disntinction between licit as valid within the Church being more hazy without Augustine.

But the bigger delta would be in his struggle against Pelagianism. I see a toned down version of Pelagianism triumphing. This has big implications for the likes of Calvin (whether or not the individual is butterflied away) because they are deprived Augustinian theology as a jumping off point.
 
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