No Russians lend lease

Would russia be able to win against germany in ww2 without lend lease from England and U.S?

  • yes

  • no

  • maybe


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This ignores the realities of Russian production during the war. A regime incapable of providing enough boots is going to get more tanks produced quicker?
They produced more tanks then Germans, more planes then Germans, more artillery then German didn't they? Boots? They got valenky, boots are all right but if it has to be so valneky will need to suffice.
 
OTL there was a big argument between Monty and Patton over whether to grab the ports as quickly as possible, or beat the Germans back as quickly as possible. Here that argument won't happen, because Eisenhower, not being an imbecile, will know that the ports are essential, and so will go after them first.
Sure. With not having 75 % of Wehrmacht on Eastern front, will they reach it? When? Or actually allies will postpone invasion to Europe to 1945?
 
Sure. With not having 75 % of Wehrmacht on Eastern front, will they reach it? When? Or actually allies will postpone invasion to Europe to 1945?
It's possibly they postpone the invasion, but that doesn't help the Germans much, as it gives the Allies another year to build up. Oh the Germans too, but the Allies can build more and better equipment. And it may not be that much longer, given the development of nuclear weapons won't be delayed by one iota.
 
It's possibly they postpone the invasion, but that doesn't help the Germans much, as it gives the Allies another year to build up. Oh the Germans too, but the Allies can build more and better equipment. And it may not be that much longer, given the development of nuclear weapons won't be delayed by one iota.
And Soviets too. So well another year, few million extra death on battlefields, in KL. Result? More or less same. More bled Soviets, even more bled Germans. British don't look better either. And Americans? With more death, wouldn't it have some political consequences back home? For example become isolationists again?
There may not be not state of Israel after war is over as there will be not much Euopean Jews left so maybe we don't have Middle Eastern troubles now.
 
Another 6 months maybe, because I suspect that even if Hitler is whacked-out crazy, if enough nukes are dropped, someone will get together a force to overthrow him and sue for peace.
 
It's possibly they postpone the invasion, but that doesn't help the Germans much, as it gives the Allies another year to build up. Oh the Germans too, but the Allies can build more and better equipment. And it may not be that much longer, given the development of nuclear weapons won't be delayed by one iota.

Postpone? Hell it might be earlier

US has several extra Manhattan Projects worth of funding and material to play with, and no shipping losses to Soviet ports.
 
I'd say an earlier invasion is unlikely, because for all the resources poured into Lend-Lease, only a fraction can be given over to extra sealift capacity, which is really what's needed.
 
And Soviets too. So well another year, few million extra death on battlefields, in KL. Result? More or less same. More bled Soviets, even more bled Germans. British don't look better either. And Americans? With more death, wouldn't it have some political consequences back home? For example become isolationists again?
There may not be not state of Israel after war is over as there will be not much Euopean Jews left so maybe we don't have Middle Eastern troubles now.



1. Agreed, more bled soviet and nazis. Sort of the point of this question.

2. Why don't the British look better? Another cohort of recruits reach draft age. The Battle of Britain is over. The Battle of the Atlantic is mostly over, in that U-boats were becoming less effective and less numerous. Brit factories are working full tilt. The majority of their economic base is outside the range of Nazi rockets. More and better equipment is coming all the time. Soldiers that are massing in the UK for invasion are resting from fighting in France, African, Italy? ect.

3. Americans? Depends on how much more casualties. OTL, we lost a lot more in WWII, than WWI, and that did not send US back to isolation.

4. Agreed. That, imo, is the big downside to this scenario, that the Holocaust has more time to operate and kill more people.
 
no LL what is the paranoid Stalin thinking?

never thought there was actual deal that could be agreed on between Germany and USSR? but if there was Stalin might agree to it if he was convinced the Allies were allowing Soviets to be defeated?

(on the Axis side all of Poland and the Baltics plus huge oil reparations? everyone but maybe Hitler would agree to that)
 
1. Agreed, more bled soviet and nazis. Sort of the point of this question.

2. Why don't the British look better? Another cohort of recruits reach draft age. The Battle of Britain is over. The Battle of the Atlantic is mostly over, in that U-boats were becoming less effective and less numerous. Brit factories are working full tilt. The majority of their economic base is outside the range of Nazi rockets. More and better equipment is coming all the time. Soldiers that are massing in the UK for invasion are resting from fighting in France, African, Italy? ect.

3. Americans? Depends on how much more casualties. OTL, we lost a lot more in WWII, than WWI, and that did not send US back to isolation.

4. Agreed. That, imo, is the big downside to this scenario, that the Holocaust has more time to operate and kill more people.
Now correct me but I read British already had men power issues in 1944. Especially to fill Army.
As to Americans, remember they need to fight Japanese to. Soviets without LL especially if everybody else is getting it and not them may have lot of funny ideas. From separate peace on their original border to quietly "selling" fuel to Japanese in later stages. I am not sure here but Stalin was vengeful MF.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Now correct me but I read British already had men power issues in 1944. Especially to fill Army.
As to Americans, remember they need to fight Japanese to. Soviets without LL especially if everybody else is getting it and not them may have lot of funny ideas. From separate peace on their original border to quietly "selling" fuel to Japanese in later stages. I am not sure here but Stalin was vengeful MF.
How much would it affect the war Stalin selling oil to Japanese
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Transport of any useful amount would be nearly impossible to Japan, given the size of the Soviet Tanker fleet
What about japan being in charge of getting it to places once they got it maybe gave it ship to the territory that borders russia?
 
What about japan being in charge of getting it to places once they got it maybe gave it ship to the territory that borders russia?

Japan's fleet of Tankers isn't much better, and it's a long trip to the Black sea ports. There is no Soviet pipeline network yet.
 
Now correct me but I read British already had men power issues in 1944. Especially to fill Army.
As to Americans, remember they need to fight Japanese to. Soviets without LL especially if everybody else is getting it and not them may have lot of funny ideas. From separate peace on their original border to quietly "selling" fuel to Japanese in later stages. I am not sure here but Stalin was vengeful MF.


1. And the brits will have another year of cohorts reaching draft age to help with those manpower needs.

And as they are pulling from the Empire also, that factor works better for them than for the Germans.


2. THe Japanese? Sure. But no more than OTL. With their rapidly sinking fleet and infinite enemies in Asia, they aren't going to be doing anything special with that extra year.

3. A separate Peace would be the worst case scenario from the point of view of the leaders of the time. But it is pretty unlikely
 

Ryan

Donor
Russians "lose" initially. Gorilla warfare is strong and nazis stard getting more and more bled out by their desire to annex as much as land as possible. Unless Japan relieves them from the east the W. Allies will beat Germany and it will probably result in a bigger rape than the end of WW2 OTL, expect even more German expelments

Heck i wouldn't be surprised if the new border is on the Elbe

gorilla-warfare_o_681688.jpg
 
no lend lease will make things very difficult for the soviets, Leningrad may totally starve to death as might Stalingrad. however Germans were stretched at this point in logistics. and of course factories were producing. lend lease was vital and with out it the tough road to victory becomes tougher.

I think you might see is a berst litvosk part II if both Leningrad and Stalingrad fall and if Kursk turns into a stalemate or worse, and that would last only until the soviets could mount a counter attack.

Post war Europe would have Poland as the buffer nation, Lithuania could be a larger nation ecompassing parts of its traditional land in Belarus.

The Japanese are not going to be invading the soviet union, they have their hands full with China, the British, the Dutch, the French and the complete attention of the United States.

The war could drag on long enough for the bomb(s) to be dropped on Germany and Japan on the same days. WWII was not going to end any other way unless the Germans somehow managed to get the bomb first ( and a real method to deliver it )
 
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