No Reconquista.

No reconquista if the islamic groups were united 100%. Problem is they were united when it came to plundering. When they were not plundering then the infighting started. You must remember that the invading armies in Iberia were made up of many Islamic groups supposedly under one flag. So it was Syrians against Berbers against Egyptian and so on. Thats why the constant raids against the French. It helped stop the infighting. Thats why centuries later so many States in Islamic Spain.
They say the invasion of Iberia in 711 was just suppose to be a raid not an invasion to conquer Iberia. Seeing no real resistance they decided to stay and expand into Iberia.

Concerning Morocco it was mostly desert. But the Almoravids did get all the way to the City of Audaghost which today would be in Mauritania.
(9th–11th century), former Berber town in the southwest Sahara, northwest of Timbuktu. Audaghost was an important terminus of the medieval trans-Saharan trade route. The town was primarily a centre where North African traders could buy gold from the kings of ancient Ghana. Audaghost was first an independent market town and later a tributary satellite of the Empire Ghana. It was captured from Ghana about 1054–55 by the Ṣanhajah wing of the Muslim Almoravid movement and thereafter declined in importance. Its location is not certain, but it probably occupied the site of what is now Tegdaoust, Mauritania.
1054 Almoravid Berbers seize Audaghost for the second time and virtually destroy it, substantially redirecting the geopolitics of the area.,
More info.. This abandoned City must be an archealogist dream since many of the ruins have still not been studied.
Aoudaghost, located out in the sand seas, used to be an important caravan hub, with caravans between Sijilmassa of Morocco and Kumbi Salah. The main products were salt and gold The trade between sub-Sahara and Mediterranean Africa was well organized as early as 500 BCE, when horses and bullocks were the normal caravan animals.
The camel was domesticated in the 3rd century CE, resulting in easier transportation. Aoudaghost flourished. The city long withstood conversion into Islam, but in the 12th century it passed into the hands of Muslim rulers, forcing the local Berbers to leave.
Aoudaghost was abandoned in the late 17th century, and today nobody lives here — the hotter climate and reduced water supplies has made that impossible.
Most of the ruins are yet to be excavated. The medieval city from the 9th until 16th centuries can be seen near the well of Togba. Further north, there is a necropolis, but we do still not know who built this. To the southeast, at al-Abiad, cave paintings can be found
Ancient Cities location:
mauritania.gif

The Southern extent of the Almoravids:
300px-Almoravid-empire-en.svg.png


I do know when Audagost was finally conquered the Kings of Takrur in the State of Takrur had a hand in helping.
Takrur(c. 800 - c. 1285) was an ancient state of West Africa, which flourished roughly parallel to the Ghana Empire.
Unlike Ghana to its east, the kings of Takrur eventually adopted Islam. Sometime in the 1030s during the reign of King War Jabi, the court converted to Islam, the first regent to officially pronounce Orthodoxy in the Sahel, establishing the faith in the region for centuries to come. This adoption of Islam greatly benefited the state economically and would also affect them in the coming conflicts between the traditionalist state of Ghana and its northern neighbors.

The king of Takrur sided with the Berber and Tuareg tribes of the Almoravids in their war with the Ghana Empire. When the Ghana Empire was finally conquered in 1076, Takrur was left as the sole power in the region. Integration of Takrur with the Almoravids meant that some of these troops reached all the way to Andalusia (Spain) with the Almoravid expansion.

Takrur would not enjoy its place in the sun very long, however. The Almoravids were quick to leave and many anti-Muslim tribes were eager to take its place.
Which shows they were most probably only interested in raiding. Once the city was conquered and destroy they left.
Other sources say they were helping the Takrur islamic kings.

Takrur was conquered in the 1280's by Mali's Emperor Sabakoura.

Map of Ghana Empire from 790–1240:
250px-Ghana_empire_map.png


Map of Takrur:
180px-Ghana_successor_map_1200.png
 
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If you look at the terrain involved, Morocco had to supply it's forces in Ghana across horrendous stretches of desert. The area was not as productive as hoped and not worth the effort of trying to hold, thus the withdrawal.

The Tuareg and various other nomadic types were interested in raiding in plunder, but Morocco is not the same thing. In order to project power that far south it was necessary to depend on desert nomads, which was not a good basis for permanence. The situation is not the same in Morocco proper and Iberia.

No reconquista if the islamic groups were united 100%. Problem is they were united when it came to plundering. When they were not plundering then the infighting started. You must remember that the invading armies in Iberia were made up of many Islamic groups supposedly under one flag. So it was Syrians against Berbers against Egyptian and so on. Thats why the constant raids against the French. It helped stop the infighting. Thats why centuries later so many States in Islamic Spain.
They say the invasion of Iberia in 711 was just suppose to be a raid not an invasion to conquer Iberia. Seeing no real resistance they decided to stay and expand into Iberia.

Concerning Morocco it was mostly desert. But the Almoravids did get all the way to the City of Audaghost which today would be in Mauritania.
More info.. This abandoned City must be an archealogist dream since many of the ruins have still not been studied.
Supposed location:
mauritania.gif

The extent of the Almoravids:
300px-Almoravid-empire-en.svg.png


I do know when Audagost was finally conquered the Kings of Takrur in the State of Takrur had a hand in helping.
Which shows they were most probably only interested in raiding. Once the city was conquered and destroy they left.
Other sources say they were helping the Takrur islamic kings.

Takrur was conquered in the 1280's by Mali's Emperor Sabakoura.

Map of Ghana Empire from 790–1240:
250px-Ghana_empire_map.png


Map of Takrur:
180px-Ghana_successor_map_1200.png
 
How about having the Almohads winning the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa ? Combine it with the conversion of King John of England to Islam and the resulted alliance with the Almohads it will certainly be able to give the Christians around Pyrennees a good beating, good enough to annihilate the Reconquista movement maybe, or at least the TTL's "first wave" of it. But nevertheless by this we basically will have free 6 centuries for us to do what we want, no ?
 
You're essentially reading inevitability into the situation which makes me wonder why you're bothering to post on an Alternate History site.
Yeah, sorry, I crossed the line in my opinion and I was rude. Sorry.I was not referring to anything having to do with religion (not know anything about religion, neither Christian nor Muslim nor Jewish). I explain myself wrong and with bad ways.

When I was a child I always imagine that Al Andalus survived (I want to make Spain a superpower that reached the twenty-first century at the height of the rest of Europe, I do not care their religion), then I growth and I saw that they had such an easy possibilities to survive as the Visigoths had. And above that was not the ideal country I had been drawing since childhood. I´m only want to say you that there are two views among the historians. One draws the last years of the presence of Islam in Iberia as a kind of protectorate of Morocco and that its survival would only lead to a Northern Morocco. The other view, I´m not going to say you where it comes from, but still draws Al Andalus as a utopia, a new Atlantis, a nation of the twenty-second century in the Middle Ages, a nation very overrated. No, I will not try to convince you that if they survive (as you say, a battle in a different way, other people in government..I think that too many things to fix) do not have the capacity to do things that made the Spanish, only that is very debatable.​

And forgive me again,I´m still thinking that you are overestimating Al Andalus but I really think that I have crossed the line with my way of expressing that, sorry :);)
 
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Yeah, sorry, I crossed the line in my opinion and I was rude. Sorry.I was not referring to anything having to do with religion (not know anything about religion, neither Christian nor Muslim nor Jewish). I explain myself wrong and with bad ways.

When I was a child I always imagine that Al Andalus survived (I want to make Spain a superpower that reached the twenty-first century at the height of the rest of Europe, I do not care their religion), then I growth and I saw that they had such an easy possibilities to survive as the Visigoths had. And above that was not the ideal country I had been drawing since childhood. I´m only want to say you that there are two views among the historians. One draws the last years of the presence of Islam in Iberia as a kind of protectorate of Morocco and that its survival would only lead to a Northern Morocco. The other view, I´m not going to say you where it comes from, but still draws Al Andalus as a utopia, a new Atlantis, a nation of the twenty-second century in the Middle Ages, a nation very overrated. No, I will not try to convince you that if they survive (as you say, a battle in a different way, other people in government..I think that too many things to fix) do not have the capacity to do things that made the Spanish, only that is very debatable.​

And forgive me again,I´m still thinking that you are overestimating Al Andalus but I really think that I have crossed the line with my way of expressing that, sorry :);)

I still think you're getting stuck on the OTL performance of al-Andalus rather than its potential performance. For instance, what if the Christians had been defeated at Las Navas de Tolosa? Just that one event could give us 20 pages of speculation. The fact remains that al-Andalus lasted for nearly 800 years - which to me means you're underestimating it.

I don't think anyone here is subscribing to the notion that it was some garden of Eden, nor do I think anyone anywhere really does that - it's a strawman argument used to try to discredit anyone who has anything positive to say about al-Andalus at all. I would prefer to stick to discussion of what it really was rather than right-wing fantasies about how backward and degenerate it was, or any illusions some people might have about it's innate superiority in all things to Christian Iberia. That it was more religiously tolerant is inarguable. That it was more advanced in many regards, especially in the earlier period, is also difficult to argue. But in a period of 800 years, it's very hard to generalize about anything - things were different at different places in different times.
 
People real need to see The Moors on histroy channal. It is a real help to people want to know more about the inter workings of Muslim Spain.

Also, i would like to add that some one made the statement that "Christian states didn't have hostile, organized pagan nations waiting on their borders for the slightest slip-up to invade." They did not have pagan organized nations but they had each other so I really do not see the point of this in an argument for all of al-Andalus makeing it. If we used that every time to states that does not worship the same way and are haveing some issues with its monarchs England would have been taken over when Elizabeth tryed to gain the throne and we would have the UKFSE (France, Scotland and England). From my understanding the fall of Al-Andalus was do to them haveing an almost not exsisting army and some issues with nobles trying to gain power and so their nation divieded itself up into city-states that the Christian kingdoms used to get money from and then distroyed one by one. It did not help that some of the poeple wanted the Christians to win so the wars between the city-states could stop.

By the way have not finish read all of this so i some one as said something like this before i am sorry
 
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Also, i would like to add that some one made the statement that "Christian states didn't have hostile, organized pagan nations waiting on their borders for the slightest slip-up to invade." They did not have pagan organized nations but they had each other so I really do not see the point of this in an argument for all of al-Andalus makeing it.
I'm pretty sure that was my comment.

To clarify: Asturias - and its successors - raided Al-Andalus frequently. When central authority periodically weakened, they invaded and settled the south. This contrasts with feudal warfare endemic to Europe. When Otto the Great invaded Italy, he didn't make it a policy to settle Germans in the major cities to overwhelm the Italian population. Similarly, the Salian acquisition of Burgundy did not entail German settlement in Provencal lands. The nature of feudal European warfare was fundamentally different from that of contemporary Al-Andalus. Hence why I do not think your comparison is as accurate.
 
Found some info. which could clear some things which even I did not know.

Many writers refer to Moorish rule over Spain spanning the 800 years from 711 to 1492 yet this is a misconception. The reality is that the Berber-Hispanic Muslims inhabited two-thirds of the peninsula for 375 years, about half of it for another 160 years and finally the kingdom of Granada for the remaining 244 years.
And it seems many Berbers did not bring women so they mixed with the locals.

This site was very informative.:
http://www.spanish-fiestas.com/andalucia/history-moorish-spain.htm

One thing the Spaniards were persistent. Even if it took 800 years to push the Moors out of Iberia.

Many say it has to due with Saint James which no one has so far mentioned.

The Romans had been displaced by the Visigoths, and later the Moors, who by 814 had conquered most of Spain.

At this bleak moment for Christianity, James propitiously reenters the picture. One night, a hermit saw a series of unusual lights in the sky that seemed to indicate a direction. As he followed them, they gradually approached the ground, and he heard the singing of angels. He went to inform the bishop, who had the undergrowth cleared and found a cave with the body of St. James – as revealed by accompanying papers. Rome named the site "campus stellae" – field of stars – and declared it a pilgrimage, incidentally finding it a good way to lure men and money to combat the Moors, and helping to unite the local kings against a common enemy. The local king built a church and monastery on the site, and a city, Santiago de Campostela, began to grow around it.

Later battles saw an avenging James in full armor, sword flashing, swooping down from the sky on a large white charger to lead the Christians to victory. It was just in time, because earlier accounts, presumably in Arabic, had reported that Allah had appeared on his own heavenly horse. James now had earned another appellation, Santiago Matamoros, "St. James the Moor Killer," since he was seen in battle gripping, in his non-sword hand, a bearded severed head. It does seem ironic that Othello's Iago is a Moor.

That is not to say that the eventual outcome was swift. In 997 the town was sacked, the church burned, and its bells taken to Cordoba to be ignominiously used as olive oil containers. Construction of the present cathedral was begun in 1075, and by the twelfth century the Moors no longer were a threat to the north.
Note - Two hundred years later the Spaniards got the bells back and had the Moors carry them back to Galicia.

Santiago de Campostela was in Galicia. Soon many in Europe started making Pilgrimage s to this city in Galicia. It was one of the three Holy sites. During the Moorish years many people who went to Santiago de Campostela went via boats hugging the coast of Northern Spain and landing where it was safe. Others risk the road which passed near Moorish areas.
Galicia has many Fjourds so it was probably best to go there by boat.

It seems this Pilgrimage played a role in uniting the Northern Spaniards and Europeans against the fight against the Moors.


Note - The Moors never held on to most of Galicia. But they did raid parts of it. There are many mountains in Galicia with easily defended passes unlike the rest of Spain which is mostly a plain. In one story in 714 the forces of the Moorish military leader Ibn Muza were crossing from Leon to Galicia via the Valcarce pass. There was an old stone Castle overlooking the pass. It is said the Galician eliminated 12000 Moors and only had 20 loss. In the end the Moors overran the old stone castle and destroyed it.

It also snowed in Galicia and the weather at higher elevations was freezing in winter so the Moors really did not like the weather there.

In 714 the Capital city of Galicia, which at that time was Lugo, was captured by the Moor military leader Ibn Muza. After finally capturing the pass of Valcarce he marched on to Lugo. Ibn Muza was then recalled. He left his troops in control of the city of Lugo. However, before the year was out they became discontent and left the city but not before burning it. They left the wall intact since they could not tear them down for some reason.
So this seemed to be Moorish policy in certain areas of Galicia. Just raids but no long term control. They do say it was because of infighting that the Moors were never able to completely capture the Iberian Peninsula. The Spaniards suffered the same problems.

Giant map of Galicia. http://www.benestargaliza.org/files/Mapa equipos de inclusión 2008_1.JPG

Map of Leon which shows were the pass of Valcarce was located.

Mapa_Provincia_Leon_Espana.jpg


Starting from the left side of the map go down until you get to the first red colored road. Follow that road which is in Galicia to the Green color which is in Leon. Where the green begins is where Leon starts. It also is where the pass is located. If you follow the road further into Leon you will get to the town of Vega of Valcarce.
 
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