No Poles in Poland

Historically Germans have become Poles, and Poles have become Germans by adopting the language and culture of the other dominant (and successful) people. I was reading about 13th-14th century Poland, and its the same idea - initially Poles were Germanising, then when in places the Polish crown and commerce became strong, Germans were Polonising.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

then have germany completely conquer poland.
 

Susano

Banned
then have germany completely conquer poland.

Despite the claims of some PoleTrolls here, Germany was ridicously inefficient at Germanification. The settlers they could motivate to move to polish ethnic borders amounted to some few 10k, and any cultrual germanification effect was completly negclectable. Prussia did have Posen for opver a 100 years, without any substantial Germanification.
 
Despite the claims of some PoleTrolls here, Germany was ridicously inefficient at Germanification. The settlers they could motivate to move to polish ethnic borders amounted to some few 10k, and any cultrual germanification effect was completly negclectable. Prussia did have Posen for opver a 100 years, without any substantial Germanification.

That, though, was after the birth of Polish romantic nationalism. I think we're talking about the very early period of Polish existence, the idea being to have them go the way of the Sorbs, which seems from my position of ignorance just about plausible if you align everything right.
 

Susano

Banned
That, though, was after the birth of Polish romantic nationalism. I think we're talking about the very early period of Polish existence, the idea being to have them go the way of the Sorbs, which seems from my position of ignorance just about plausible if you align everything right.

Eh, the Sorbs were peasants, and thats about it. The better comparision to that are the Czechs at the time when Czech was reduced to rural hinterland, or even better yet Slovaks and Slovenes. The Poles still had an entire social structure, even when ruled from abroads, though, including whats called in a German context burghers, craftmen, intellectuals, etc etc etc. Very much harder to gradually assimilate such a culture - and with the Sorbs, that still took some centuries!

Besides, the slightly crazy OP seems very much to speak about Congress Poland, the only time when the majority of Poland was Russian.
 
Eh, the Sorbs were peasants, and thats about it. The better comparision to that are the Czechs at the time when Czech was reduced to rural hinterland, or even better yet Slovaks and Slovenes. The Poles still had an entire social structure, even when ruled from abroads, though, including whats called in a German context burghers, craftmen, intellectuals, etc etc etc. Very much harder to gradually assimilate such a culture - and with the Sorbs, that still took some centuries!

As I say, I'm embarrasingly ignorant of the early Middle Ages; you know better.

Besides, the slightly crazy OP seems very much to speak about Congress Poland, the only time when the majority of Poland was Russian.

Yeah, that's just wrong for soe many reasons, among them:

1) Britain, France, and liberal opinion will go into fatal coniptions.

2) The whole point of the Emancipation was that the serfs were supposed to stay where they were.

3) That's not how one solves a famine problem.

4) Where do the Poles go?

And so on and so on and so on.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
While this is almost ASB I could see some way we could make something like this happen.

The only real oppotunity are the Polish rebellion in 1830. According to Wikipedia Congress Poland had around 3,3 million inhabitants at the time, it seem to fit with other sources. So it not unrealistic to drive a significant amount out. So let's imagine that the Tsar goes amok in the rebellion and began a really brutal slaughter of the Poles to break their spirit. So let imagine 0,5 million dead, with around the same fleeing to Prussia and Austria. After te war the Tsar decide to deport a large segment of the Polish population east (mostly to the Don and Volga area), we likely see a new wave of Polish refugees. likely we can get around 0,5 million deported and the same fleeing again. Congress Poland now has around 1,3 million inhabitant with around 300 000 Jews and 100 000 Germans*. Much of the land are split up in large estates for the Russian and Baltic German nobles. Large scale emigration of Othodoxs peasant are seen many are just moved by the new landowners to the new lands, while Jews move in to take up the former Polish position in the cities, some emigration are also seen from Germany, but on smaller scale than the Jews and "Russians".

By 1850 Congress Poland has a population of 2,6 million people, split between 1,1 million Russians, 700 000 Poles (continued emigration has lowered the Polish population even more), 500 000 Jews 200 000 Germans and 100 000 others.

The Poles has mostly left and fleed to to Galicia, Posen and Silesia, through a significant amount also has ended up in Ruhr and USA. Beside that Poles made also up a majority in many areas along the Volga, giving birth to Volga Poles.

The Polish national movement was hard hit in Prussia the destruction of Polish nation in Congress Poland destroyed any hope for a unified Polish state, and hmany begun to see the Prussian state as protection against Russian oppression. In Galicia the infusion of Polish refugees resulted in growing polification of Ruthenian Galicia, and the growth of a Polish based Galician national movement, through it stayed loyal to the Habsburgs which it saw as protection against the Russians. Galicia with the large influx of of Polish middleclass and intelligensia also saw a growth in both urbanisation and a beginning industrialisation.

Russian Poland was poorer than the former Congress Poland, it was split in large latifondas, which while productive, destroyed the oppotunity for the development of rural middleclass, the cities was dominated by Jews and Germans, whom served as mercantile middlemen and in the Germans cases as government adminstrators. Industrial the lack of free workers had resulted in a lack of industrialisation which moved north to the Baltic states. For the Jews their secure position had resulted in more rights and a greater tolerance from the Russian regime whom needed them, and as result Jewish culture and intelligensia flourished.

For the new Russian serf in Poland life was much as it always had been, hard backbreaking labour.

*Likely with a focus on the Poles both groups would go free of killings and cleansings, even with the Russians dislike of Jews.
 
Well, if you want a POD early enough - instead of Slavic migrations, have the Lithuanians and Norsemen fill the void in those areas, but it requires a very early POD. Other than that, what Susan O said.

The problem with this is that the area of central Poland today might very well be the cultural hearth of the Slavs. They may have lived there since Indo-Europeans first moved into the area.

Russia, after all, used to be Finnish*. The Slavs who would someday become the Russians started moving in during the 600 and 700's. It's Poland that has probably always spoke a Slavic language.

*For an extremely loose definition of 'Finnish', of course
 
While this is almost ASB I could see some way we could make something like this happen.

The only real oppotunity are the Polish rebellion in 1830. According to Wikipedia Congress Poland had around 3,3 million inhabitants at the time, it seem to fit with other sources. So it not unrealistic to drive a significant amount out. So let's imagine that the Tsar goes amok in the rebellion and began a really brutal slaughter of the Poles to break their spirit. So let imagine 0,5 million dead, with around the same fleeing to Prussia and Austria. After te war the Tsar decide to deport a large segment of the Polish population east (mostly to the Don and Volga area), we likely see a new wave of Polish refugees. likely we can get around 0,5 million deported and the same fleeing again. Congress Poland now has around 1,3 million inhabitant with around 300 000 Jews and 100 000 Germans*. Much of the land are split up in large estates for the Russian and Baltic German nobles. Large scale emigration of Othodoxs peasant are seen many are just moved by the new landowners to the new lands, while Jews move in to take up the former Polish position in the cities, some emigration are also seen from Germany, but on smaller scale than the Jews and "Russians".

By 1850 Congress Poland has a population of 2,6 million people, split between 1,1 million Russians, 700 000 Poles (continued emigration has lowered the Polish population even more), 500 000 Jews 200 000 Germans and 100 000 others.

The Poles has mostly left and fleed to to Galicia, Posen and Silesia, through a significant amount also has ended up in Ruhr and USA. Beside that Poles made also up a majority in many areas along the Volga, giving birth to Volga Poles.

The Polish national movement was hard hit in Prussia the destruction of Polish nation in Congress Poland destroyed any hope for a unified Polish state, and hmany begun to see the Prussian state as protection against Russian oppression. In Galicia the infusion of Polish refugees resulted in growing polification of Ruthenian Galicia, and the growth of a Polish based Galician national movement, through it stayed loyal to the Habsburgs which it saw as protection against the Russians. Galicia with the large influx of of Polish middleclass and intelligensia also saw a growth in both urbanisation and a beginning industrialisation.

Russian Poland was poorer than the former Congress Poland, it was split in large latifondas, which while productive, destroyed the oppotunity for the development of rural middleclass, the cities was dominated by Jews and Germans, whom served as mercantile middlemen and in the Germans cases as government adminstrators. Industrial the lack of free workers had resulted in a lack of industrialisation which moved north to the Baltic states. For the Jews their secure position had resulted in more rights and a greater tolerance from the Russian regime whom needed them, and as result Jewish culture and intelligensia flourished.

For the new Russian serf in Poland life was much as it always had been, hard backbreaking labour.

*Likely with a focus on the Poles both groups would go free of killings and cleansings, even with the Russians dislike of Jews.


there we go, thats what I was looking for

Thank you very much :D

@Susano, I'll try not to take that as you calling me crazy but refering more to the circumstances I described
 
Russias problem is a lack of food and poverty, by having a land like poland with the population sent elsewhere the Russian poor could be sent in and given land provided they use it to produce food.

Russians who historically could have starved to death could instead be living in Poland, poverty would overall be down because people who started with nothing would now have at least soil and at least access to a chance to become something besides a number in a famine death toll.
It'd make things worse for the Russian Empire.

First, Russia had PLENTY of space to send settlers (Siberia was apparently seen better in eras when this did happen, because it became a land of more freedom), but it only happened irregularly. So the problem is administration, not space.

Secondly, the fewer people you have (no Poles!), the smaller your laborforce and thus economy is. Hitler had fewer people and a widely enslaved labor force and was so severely outproduced by the Allies. Cyrus I DID work with Persia's conquered peoples, and founded a huge empire. Just keep this in mind, would-be evil emperors: ethnic cleansing and genocide don't pay.
 
It'd make things worse for the Russian Empire.

First, Russia had PLENTY of space to send settlers (Siberia was apparently seen better in eras when this did happen, because it became a land of more freedom), but it only happened irregularly. So the problem is administration, not space.

That's an excellent point. As I said, the mobility of labour was hugely limited in Russia even after the emancipation; shortly after Stolypin's reforms opened the floodgates, western Siberia started to be much more heavily settled and the Kazakhs were by 1916 being edged off their own land. The "virgin lands" are a much more logical choice to settle; they're bigger, the natives are weak, disorganised, nomadic (the Russian state has consistently tried to bring nomad land under cultivation), and the French don't give a toss about them.

Whereas Poland is small, and the Poles there are already growing food. Then, of course, there's the fact that the western krai is essentially owned and run by Poles. Even after 1863, this only changed gradually. The Russians only felt these provinces were sufficiently Russian for Zemstva in 1911.

Secondly, the fewer people you have (no Poles!), the smaller your laborforce and thus economy is. Hitler had fewer people and a widely enslaved labor force and was so severely outproduced by the Allies. Cyrus I DID work with Persia's conquered peoples, and founded a huge empire. Just keep this in mind, would-be evil emperors: ethnic cleansing and genocide don't pay.

Then, of course, there's the fact that the western krai is essentially owned and run by Poles. Even after 1863, this only changed gradually. The Russians only felt these provinces were sufficiently Russian for Zemstva in 1911.
 
First, Russia had PLENTY of space to send settlers (Siberia was apparently seen better in eras when this did happen, because it became a land of more freedom), but it only happened irregularly. So the problem is administration, not space.

alright, that seems pretty reasonable and entirely changes my view of the subject....

Since I don't feel starting a new thread would be reasonable, how could Russia have fixed its administration and made its Siberian lands more productive than they were historically?

My original goal is still here, make people who would have historically died from famine become more than just a casualty, preferably farmers themselves
 
alright, that seems pretty reasonable and entirely changes my view of the subject....

Since I don't feel starting a new thread would be reasonable, how could Russia have fixed its administration and made its Siberian lands more productive than they were historically?

Earlier *Stolypin Reforms that give mobility to the emancipated serfs and subsidise their settlement of Siberia and the Steppe Governate-General, plus earlier railways to take them there.

If you have Russia avoid ossifying under A1 and especially N1, you could probably start the process a few decades early, the the 1880s or so.

My original goal is still here, make people who would have historically died from famine become more than just a casualty, preferably farmers themselves

They were farmers: they just farmed in a harsh and unreliable climate using basically primitive techniques. In fact by the time of the Soviet famines, the peasants starved and the city-folk ate.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
so the famines would be unavoidable?

Yes it was part of the economical and social structure of Russian society, of course the climate didn't help, but primary it was a result in the enourmous unequality. Of course by destroying some of the most wealthy peasants of Russia by ethnic cleasning it's only going to be worse.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I have been thinking about this by deporting half a million Poles to the Lower Volga this early we may see north Kazahkstan, westen Sibiria and Lower Volga being dominated by Poles instead of Russians. They will likely stay cultural and national distinct thanks to their Catholic background even if they adopt the Russian language.
 
The polish farmer is no longer there, suddenly Ivan shows up to a free farm

my question isn't about genocide or ethnic cleansing but about what would happen if Poland became Russian by nationality

The question is not weither or not it happened, I know it did not, Poland is on my map

If Poland became as much Russian as belorussia was by the late 1800's, would Russia be better off than historically?

Basically, despite HOW it is done, a more homogenous state will no doubt mean that Russia has less problems what with no (or fewer) Polish Uprisings and Connivings and such. Of course, they still have all those other nationalities everywhere. And no matter HOW it happens, you will have some sort of Polish Uprisings/Revolts on your hands.

I think, if the Russians do this in as humane a manor as possible - or as quiet as possible - then they will be able to sufficiently alter the demographics in traditional Polish lands to become more beneficial to Russians and the Tsar. You will STILL, however, have problems with the nobility, particularly since you're sticking a bunch of freed serfs into regions which otherwise would have a very complicated internal political situation.

Likewise, with a forcible migration WEST rather than East, you'll have a more Euro-centric Russian than OTL, and this means that Russia will have far less influence in Manchuria and will mean an even earlier sale of Alaska. Perhaps less emphasis on the Far East in general, so no great port at Vladivostok, no Trans-Siberian Railway, the Russo-Japanese War butterflied... hell, Russia may even sell parts of Siberia. This may also put into question Russia's suzerainty over Central Asia and as far south as Persia or even the Caucasus. Unless, of course, you cart all those Poles off to Siberia someplace as veritable serfs there.

More Russians at, say, Danzig will mean less import on the water access at St. Petersburg (perhaps) and also less interest in holding onto the Baltic States (potentially). Depending on WHEN exactly you're wanting to do all this, of course. The earlier the better off Russia will be. Otherwise, it could all go very badly when/if World War 1 kicks off and Germany can pull in hundreds of thousands of Poles with the promise of a free Polish State once again inhabited by ethnic Poles. At the same time, though, if the Poles end up going to France, UK, and USA, there might be more French Foreign/Condor Legions running around with the Allies if they can swing enough diplomatic support to get Russia to back off.

That's decades later, of course, so there's plenty that could be done.

Hell, one of the main reasons that Russia and Germany went to war was simply that Wilhelm constantly talked down to his cousin, Nicholas. You change enough of the personal interactions there, over the Polish issue, then perhaps you'll have a sooner Russo-German War in 1908 or something, or a German-Russian Alliance in whatever World War 1 scenario you come across.

Just depends on how the International Polish Emigration was handled. But yes, if handled correctly, Russia will have a stronger presence and bargaining chip in Eastern Europe. Might butterfly the Serb-Russian relationship, however, since Serbia will look at what the Russians did to OTHER Slavs and say "Hmm, maybe Ivan wants to displace we Serb, too."

Might be interesting to see.
 
There were two chances for gradual elimination of Polish nation.
1. No Napoleon. This guy recreated sort of rump Polish state and stimulated the rise of myth. If not him, part of the intellectual elite who were the nation, would assimilate into Austrian, Russian and Prussian courts and the dissidents would be exiled or taken into Sibir. The peasant population at that time were politically indifferent. They could retain their customs and catholic faith but they wouldn't call themselves Poles.
2. No First World War. There were Polish entousiasts in Galicia and in Poznań Grand Duchy but much less in former Polish Kingdom. Especially the peasants were loyal to Tzar because of emancipation in 1864. They called themselves "Mazurs" and for them Poles were the nobles - oppresors. Pilsudski wasn't succesfull at all in trying to form legions in Kingdom. I can't recollect where I read that the defeat of three oppressor states happened in last possible time to give a chance for Polish resurrection.
I think that without these two happenings Polish identity and language would be dying especially after mass media and mass education introduction.
 
Its so easy guys:rolleyes: all you need to do is have the teutonic order crush the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth and done no Poland, instead the poles will be known as Teutons....:p Congratulations youve just got rid of all Poles meaning......... youve commited genocide,:eek::eek::eek:
 
Its so easy guys:rolleyes: all you need to do is have the teutonic order crush the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth and done no Poland, instead the poles will be known as Teutons....:p Congratulations youve just got rid of all Poles meaning......... youve commited genocide,:eek::eek::eek:

Teutonic Order cased to exist 50 years before creation of P-L Commonwealth.:rolleyes:

There were two chances for gradual elimination of Polish nation.
1. No Napoleon. This guy recreated sort of rump Polish state and stimulated the rise of myth. If not him, part of the intellectual elite who were the nation, would assimilate into Austrian, Russian and Prussian courts and the dissidents would be exiled or taken into Sibir. The peasant population at that time were politically indifferent. They could retain their customs and catholic faith but they wouldn't call themselves Poles.
2. No First World War. There were Polish entousiasts in Galicia and in Poznań Grand Duchy but much less in former Polish Kingdom. Especially the peasants were loyal to Tzar because of emancipation in 1864. They called themselves "Mazurs" and for them Poles were the nobles - oppresors. Pilsudski wasn't succesfull at all in trying to form legions in Kingdom. I can't recollect where I read that the defeat of three oppressor states happened in last possible time to give a chance for Polish resurrection.
I think that without these two happenings Polish identity and language would be dying especially after mass media and mass education introduction.

This would weaken Polish nationalism a little bit, but by no means would it eliminate it. Czechs or Ukrainians retained their identity under much worse conditions.
 
This would weaken Polish nationalism a little bit, but by no means would it eliminate it. Czechs or Ukrainians retained their identity under much worse conditions.

Yes, that's why I have written about a chance not about a certainty. The first reconstruction of Polish state coincided with Romanticism and Nationalism in the beginning of XIX c. and the second one with new wave of nationalism and rise of mass media, mass education and mass transport which bring real control by government over population in the beginning of XX c. It helped to form new Polish society. If there were no Polish state and no Polish elites it would hamper forming of Polish society.
And I think that there was much easier for Czechs and Ukrainians to retain their indentities while they had rump Polish state as an example.
 
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