No Partitions

WI there were no partitions of Poland in the 1700's and Poland was ruled by a line of powerful kings from some other dynasty (not really important in this thread). What would be it's condition during the industrialization and in what shape would europe be with Poland a major nation.
 
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What, how, when, who? Be a little more precise. Piast dynasty survives? Jagiellon dynasty survives? Some other powerful dynasty takes over? When and what is POD?
 

Susano

Banned
Somebody (Prem Rack? Could be) had posted a thread about how to avoid the Polish downfall during the late 17th and 18th century. Many people simply said "Avoid the Deluge", but I think at least the partitions can be avoided if the Wettin monarchy is strengthened. Which of course would requrie them not be a bunch of wasteful incompetents, but changing that is possible.

Prem Rack (if it was him ;) ) said that gave him an evil idea, but so far I think he hasnt posted anything yet...
 
WI there were no partitions of Poland in the 1700's and Poland was ruled by a line of powerful kings from some other dynasty (not really important in this thread). What would be it's condition during the industrialization and in what shape would europe be with Poland a major nation.

It depends on your POD. If your POD is before Chmielnitcki, we can have a Poland ruling from the baltic states to the black sea well into the 19th century. If your POD is earlier, before 1612, we may just have a Pole made Tsar, and a Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Commonwealth from Siberia to Silesia. Or you can go even further back and merge the Polish and Swedish Kingdoms. The Deluge and the Chmielnitcki Uprising are what screwed the Commonwealth over for decades to come.
 
The house of Wettin (August II the Strong was from the house of Wettin) somehow succeeds in securing hereditary succession to the Polish throne could help.
 
I know it doesn't really help answer your question, but it would be an interesting story reading about how a King of Poland came to be so assertive. Poland wasn't good at royal supremacy over the "overmighty subject" Lords of the Sejm, but I'd be interested in reading a TL about how they managed to break the Sejm's power.
 
If the Wettins were so incompetent, what about exchanging them for the Hohenzollerns? WI Frederick Augustus of Saxony had not converted to Catholicism, but Frederick I of Prussia had made instead? He wanted to make Prussia a kingdom after all, so WI he had decided that becoming king of Poland was worth a Mass?
 

Susano

Banned
If the Wettins were so incompetent, what about exchanging them for the Hohenzollerns? WI Frederick Augustus of Saxony had not converted to Catholicism, but Frederick I of Prussia had made instead? He wanted to make Prussia a kingdom after all, so WI he had decided that becoming king of Poland was worth a Mass?

That would go straight against his character, but I guess we can exchange Frederick for an altergänger. Or hell, have his older brother survive and becoem Brandenburg ruler... but what would be Brandenburgs chances of gaining the Polish crown?
 
That would go straight against his character, but I guess we can exchange Frederick for an altergänger. Or hell, have his older brother survive and becoem Brandenburg ruler... but what would be Brandenburgs chances of gaining the Polish crown?

The sames as Saxony?;) After all, who would expect that the head of the Corpus Evangelicorum would become a Papist?:p
 

Lokari

Banned
The best option would be to postpone 3rd Partition(2nd one postponed would be even better, but is more difficult), and have Poles take back territories taken by Prussia once Napoleon engages there in war. Since in OTL Poles did revolt succesfully against Prussian rule during Prussian conflict, they would have an excuse to support local population.
With continued reforms and more experienced, and larger military when Poles revolt against Russian control that could change the outcome of historical conflict between Russia and France-Russian forces could be engaged on Polish soil, shortening the supply lines and allowing to capture many Russian soldiers.
 
I've always wondered, could the lack of a May Constitution keep Poland alive.

In OTL, the constitution angered Russia and sent warning bells in Prussia about republican radicalism and brought about the second partition.

And if Poland can survive into the Napoleonic Wars, it could reform itself then, as did all the other countries fighting Napoleon.
 
And who says Poland would have fighted against Napoleon? Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had no conflict of interest with him and quite a lot of common enemies. Russia, Prussia, Austria weren't exactly considered good friends in Warsaw. So perhaps some kind of alliance was possible. That Napoleon was an usurper? So what? He was elected, after all (there was a plebiscite if the French wanted him as an emperor). Just like Polish king (I wonder who? Stanisław August Poniatowski would have been dead already).
 

Lokari

Banned
Yes, postpone the reform movement-perhaps by giving away smaller concessions till early 1800s when Prussia and Russia are absorbed by different issues. Then have a revolt when Napoleon fights in Prussia.
 
One way to make a powerful Poland would be to have the Jagiellons not die out in 1526, and (VERY IMPORTANT HERE) get a secure hold over the nobility. If the King can assert his power over the nobility, than he can turn his attention to dealing with foreigners. Many of whom, it might be added, are either in the midst of periods of extreme weakness/fragmentation (Germany) or will enter such periods on the not-too-distant future (Russia). A good, stable monarch will have plenty of oppertunities to expand his borders and create the strongest power east of the Rhine. All this depends on creating a strong central goverment in the 1500s.

Another more interesting (IMO) way would be to avoid the period of fragmentation 1138-1306 by having Boleslaw III not divide his kingdom in his will. Then, you have a strong Poland even earlier, and with the potential to expand greatly in the aftermath of the Mongol invasions.
 
Just like Polish king (I wonder who? Stanisław August Poniatowski would have been dead already).

Well, as the Constitution stated that the dynasty that would rule Poland would be the Wettin, probably Poniatowski would support one of them as his successor (of course, getting elected is other problem).
 
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