No Norwegian Independence, Sweden still control

Onyx

Banned
Alright, please do not flame me of this, I like Norwegians, I like Norway, I like Sweden, I like both, they are cool, awesome, and have good food, there.

in 1905, Sweden first saw the Declaration as a rebellious act but then decideds that they should give a Pebliscite.

Suppose, that during the 1810s and onwards, the Norwegians become more resistant and rebellious to the Swedes, and when the Declaration comes up in 1905, Sweden refuses independence over Norway due to Resistance.

What would happen? I can expect Civil War of course, but hows it possible to get Sweden to refuse?
 
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There are those who say the British were the motivating factor behind the scenes for Norwegian independence in 1905 due to their fear of the growing ties between Sweden and Germany. Should Sweden be able to hold onto Norway, there is always the possibility of their allowing German use of Norwegian ports during WWI or a pre-emptive strike by the British to prevent just this drawing Sweden in WWI. Should Sweden decide to, at the least, support Germany via neutrality, I could see the attempt at a blockade in OTL failing.
 
Well, as horrible as we were to our neighbours to the west (and we did some bad things to them) the Swedish rule over Norway was never that hard. Norway had its own internal affairs and even militias. This is not to say they were particularly free, but if they decided to rebel in 1905 I doubt we could have stopped them.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Yes, and in the early 1900s Norwegian independence was inevitable. As mentioned Norway had held a very free position already before independence, and it was only natural the Norwegians would seek full independence. And while there was a huge irritation over the matter in Sweden, there was really no urge to fight the Norwegians.
 
Firstly Norway had been actively working for it independence a long time bye 1905.
The country had its own Army, navy and several border fortifications.
Norway hade started a massive rearmament in 1895 4 “panserskip” 2 commissioned in 89 and the other 2 in 1901, 34 torpedo boats , wear 22 of them was built after 95, 11 gunboats and 4 monitors.
Several people, even those that did not wish for war consider it a possibility. And there wer high tensions from the Storting declaration of the dissolvement of the union on the 7. July and during the negotiations at Karlstad between august 31 and September 23. Specifically the period 13-15 of September is a likely start due to starting mobilisation and the apparent deadlock of the negotiations.

I know of two works on this subject, the Swedish “När Krigsguden talar” and “Det Nye Norge. Krigen I 1905”. War would probably not have been to long, the Swedes hade twice the Norwegian number at the border, officaly on drill, but faced modern and strong fortifications. If the Swedes quickly mange to conquer Østfold and Kongsvinger and thereby seize the capital the would be able to keep the union.

If on the other handed they are stopped at the border, or slowed down enough great power intervention is likely as well as a general strike in Sweden.
 
To avoid a norwegian independence we have to change the outcome of the peace in 1813. Instead of a personal union between Norway and Sweden we get a simple anexation and swedification of Norway.

We might have been drawn into WW2, but we would have oil.
 
At this point Sweden could hold onto Norway, there isnt a real chance of an all out war. Howeverrioting and cratered uprising passive resistance is a sure thing.

Norway already has a degree of freedom but the ideas pan-Scandinavianism may gan some support amongst the population of Norway.

I really depends on how the Swedes handle things IRL they just kinda gave up.
 
[At this point Sweden could hold onto Norway, there isnt a real chance of an all out war. Howeverrioting and cratered uprising passive resistance is a sure thing.

Norway already has a degree of freedom but the ideas pan-Scandinavianism may gan some support amongst the population of Norway.

I really depends on how the Swedes handle things IRL they just kinda gave up. /QUOTE]

You doe know that norway had its own army and navy right? Pan-Scandinavianism did with the Prussian attack on Denmark. You would need a POD pre 1884, and even then you would have a growing Anti-union movment.
 

Susano

Banned
Purely officially, Norway did not secede from Sweden, but simply ended the union of Sweden-Norway. A Sweden-dominated union to be sure, but its still an important difference that most of the people in this thread seem to ignore.
 
Officially and legally Norway stopped having the same king as Sweden as he no longer could fulfill his constitutional duties.
If you whant to keep Norway and Sweden toghter, 1905 is to late. 1884 is the lates IMO.
 
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The situation in 1905 made for anxieties in Denmark and fear of war with Denmark allied to Norway - of course!
But I have to go home and consult my source - Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie Bind 3.
 
The situation in 1905 made for anxieties in Denmark and fear of war with Denmark allied to Norway - of course!
But I have to go home and consult my source - Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie Bind 3.

The story is quite complicated. As the Norwegians demanded the dissolving of the Union they asked for a Swedish prince as their head of state. Stockholm didn't answer this.

As the Great Powers wavered back and forth and couldn't agree to which German prince should become King of Norway the Norwegians asked the Danish Prince Carl, son in law of King Edward 7 to become their King.

The negotiations proceded with the Danes demanding Swedish accept of the arrangement - Carl as King of Norway - and worked on the behalf of the Norwegians vis a vis the Great Powers.

At a time the Swedish minister in Copenhagen threatened to cut economic relations perhaps even war.

Getting the support of France, Russia and Britain the Swedes backed down.
 
Keeping the Union would have needed stronger Swedish actions. Swedish intelligence and security organizations trace their herritage back to 1905so a more totalitarian Sweden is a possibility
 
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