No Norman Conquest

Definitely, do you think then that Malcolm Canmore would niot marry Margaret of Wessex, but would instead look to marry a Danish Princess?

That would be a good move. If Ingegerd of Norway is single and Harold tries to smooth things over with a proposal of marriage from his oldest son, Godwin (he might be a couple of years younger, but it could work), then Malcolm would be smart to propose marriage to Ingerid Svendsdatter of Denmark, who is admittedly VERY young for him, but... yeah. He'd have to be quick though, cuz Olaf Kyrre of Norway married her in 1067. I believe that Malcolm supported Harald Hardrada's invasion of England however, so he might actually be the one to preemptively move for an alliance with Denmark against the English if he feels threatened after the Norwegians were so badly defeated at Stamford Bridge, especially of Harold seals the deal with a counter-attack on Normandy and comes home with a bunch of plunder. Remember as I said before, the Godwinsons control almost the entire country, which will make for a very different political development down the line if this continues (think the centralization of Imperial China), and so Harold can do basically whatever he wants with England now. A successful counter-attack on Normandy and also a raid into Wales will make Harold and the Godwinsons extremely popular in military circles, and that doesn't bode well Malcolm.

Down the road, you might see something like the long lasting conflict between England and France and the natural alliance between the Scottish and the French developing between the English and the Danish, with the Scottish and Norwegians as natural allies to Denmark and England. This draws England away from politics on the continent, specifically France, perhaps permanently. England will be much more focused on the North Sea and the Baltic, with a lot of exchange between the nobility, and hell, maybe they're able to project themselves into the Eastern Baltic in a couple of hundred years.
 
That would be a good move. If Ingegerd of Norway is single and Harold tries to smooth things over with a proposal of marriage from his oldest son, Godwin (he might be a couple of years younger, but it could work), then Malcolm would be smart to propose marriage to Ingerid Svendsdatter of Denmark, who is admittedly VERY young for him, but... yeah. He'd have to be quick though, cuz Olaf Kyrre of Norway married her in 1067. I believe that Malcolm supported Harald Hardrada's invasion of England however, so he might actually be the one to preemptively move for an alliance with Denmark against the English if he feels threatened after the Norwegians were so badly defeated at Stamford Bridge, especially of Harold seals the deal with a counter-attack on Normandy and comes home with a bunch of plunder. Remember as I said before, the Godwinsons control almost the entire country, which will make for a very different political development down the line if this continues (think the centralization of Imperial China), and so Harold can do basically whatever he wants with England now. A successful counter-attack on Normandy and also a raid into Wales will make Harold and the Godwinsons extremely popular in military circles, and that doesn't bode well Malcolm.

Down the road, you might see something like the long lasting conflict between England and France and the natural alliance between the Scottish and the French developing between the English and the Danish, with the Scottish and Norwegians as natural allies to Denmark and England. This draws England away from politics on the continent, specifically France, perhaps permanently. England will be much more focused on the North Sea and the Baltic, with a lot of exchange between the nobility, and hell, maybe they're able to project themselves into the Eastern Baltic in a couple of hundred years.

Oh now that would be very fascinating. I do wonder then, might Malcolm look to arrange a marriage for his son Duncan to Ingerid then?

Edit. Just did a check, seems I was wrong, Malcolm's wife was still alive in 1066. So, I think then Malcolm might be smart enough to arrange a marriage between their son and a Danish Princess of age?
 
Oh now that would be very fascinating. I do wonder then, might Malcolm look to arrange a marriage for his son Duncan to Ingerid then?

Edit. Just did a check, seems I was wrong, Malcolm's wife was still alive in 1066. So, I think then Malcolm might be smart enough to arrange a marriage between their son and a Danish Princess of age?

So, just glancing at Wikipedia, it appears to be disputed whether or not she was alive. She might have died in the late 1050s. I had forgotten just who she was, and the fact that her son's, stepchildren to Malcolm Canmore, fought at Stamford Bridge alongside Olaf Kyrre (who was 16 and went with his father) means that she is going to have some political clout to wave around in the post-Stamford and post-Hastings aftermath. She might push Malcolm to try and marry one of his sons Ingegerd of Norway to cement an alliance with Norway, but I think if Olaf and Magnus have their wits about them, they would accept a proposal of marriage from Godwin to smooth things over between Norway and England so that the English can be used against the Danes. If she's successful, then things could go the other way, with Norway and Scotland being allied against England and Denmark, but that's IF Harold can make something happen with the Danes, which isn't guaranteed. I'm not sure if the Danes, as I said earlier, have a claim to the English throne by now, not that anyone in England would recognize without a fight that is, but Svenn II is Cnut the Great's nephew through his mother, Estrid, and I imagine thought of himself as having some claim to the title... at least as good a claim as William the Bastard would have. Perhaps if Harold were to promise Gytha or Gunhild to one of Svenn's boys, he might take the offer as an opportunity to subvert the House of Godwinson and present and unite Denmark and England under a single ruler, one that would be seen as more legitimate by the English... maybe. That's kind of a stretch, I think.

I think the most realistic option with Denmark is that, if Ingibiorg can't get her younger cousins Olaf Kyrre and Magnus on board with an alliance with Scotland, which is a very big if - I think it could go either way - then the Scots will seek out an alliance with the Danes to check the Norwegians and the English. But, if she can, and one of the Scottish princes is married to Ingegerd instead, then I think the Danes tell the English to sit on their thumbs if Harold tries to make amends.
 
So WI there had been no Norman invasion (perhaps Edward the Confessor has a recognized heir?) How does this play out for England in terms of the courts, language, etc?

A perennial favourite of this board and WI discussions everywhere. Personal fave: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...he-chronicle-of-the-anglo-saxon-kings.271585/ , unfortunately no longer active.

man the butterflies from this event.... there a reason why few attempt to cover this

(ahem) Apologies for the self-promotion, but my own take: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pages-torn-from-an-alt-history.458746/ .
 
So, just glancing at Wikipedia, it appears to be disputed whether or not she was alive. She might have died in the late 1050s. I had forgotten just who she was, and the fact that her son's, stepchildren to Malcolm Canmore, fought at Stamford Bridge alongside Olaf Kyrre (who was 16 and went with his father) means that she is going to have some political clout to wave around in the post-Stamford and post-Hastings aftermath. She might push Malcolm to try and marry one of his sons Ingegerd of Norway to cement an alliance with Norway, but I think if Olaf and Magnus have their wits about them, they would accept a proposal of marriage from Godwin to smooth things over between Norway and England so that the English can be used against the Danes. If she's successful, then things could go the other way, with Norway and Scotland being allied against England and Denmark, but that's IF Harold can make something happen with the Danes, which isn't guaranteed. I'm not sure if the Danes, as I said earlier, have a claim to the English throne by now, not that anyone in England would recognize without a fight that is, but Svenn II is Cnut the Great's nephew through his mother, Estrid, and I imagine thought of himself as having some claim to the title... at least as good a claim as William the Bastard would have. Perhaps if Harold were to promise Gytha or Gunhild to one of Svenn's boys, he might take the offer as an opportunity to subvert the House of Godwinson and present and unite Denmark and England under a single ruler, one that would be seen as more legitimate by the English... maybe. That's kind of a stretch, I think.

I think the most realistic option with Denmark is that, if Ingibiorg can't get her younger cousins Olaf Kyrre and Magnus on board with an alliance with Scotland, which is a very big if - I think it could go either way - then the Scots will seek out an alliance with the Danes to check the Norwegians and the English. But, if she can, and one of the Scottish princes is married to Ingegerd instead, then I think the Danes tell the English to sit on their thumbs if Harold tries to make amends.

It will certainly make for a very interesting and fascinating time, that's for sure!
 
An Anglo-Saxon England may still be drawn to conflict with France, because if one thing: Flemish textiles.

It's undeniable that Harold Godwinson would have a very strong rule over the country in the event of him beating William, that's two invading armies beaten back-to-back in a single year at opposite ends of the country. He'd probably go down as a national heroic figure in the same realm as Alfred the Great. The Witenagemot, always more of an advisory council than an actual formal assembly that we might imagine, will be especially weak in his time. But, it would survive, Harold likely never matching the control William had over his nobles in England, them personally owing him for their lands. England, especially the north, would be more urbanised, with richer and larger towns and cities with no Harrying. All that said, I dont think it's too unlikely that England will have a more parliamentary trajectory similar to Poland after the Piast dynasty was extinguished, with the Witenagemot solidifying with more official powers when either there's a weak king or when Godwin runs out of steam. This lesser power in the monarchy and possible greater independence of the cities from the nobles could make it more difficult for the king to raise money through direct taxation, making money raised with tariffs even more important.

Hence, Flemish textiles. England was one of the main producers of wool in Europe, with much of it going to Flanders. The Monarchy and the the Witenagemot would probably readily agree that it was in everybody's interest for Flanders to be buying as much English wool as possible. If the French try to tax Flanders more or otherwise take more direct control over it, then that trade gets disrupted. So there's still some interest in keeping France (and the HRE too) too weak to centralise authority, even if England isn't interested in taking huge amounts of land like the Angevins.

Otherwise, the history of this England is probably happier than our own. There might be fights similar to the Barons' Wars over the balance of power between Monarch and Witenagemot, but lack of dynastic intermingling with France and vassal having a recognised say in the choosing of the monarch likely means fewer wars, and those wars being fought going to lesser scales. That money not being spent on wars hopefully means it either stays in the hands of the peasants and craftspeople or goes to art, infrastructure, and architecture. England finishes the Middle Ages presumably not exhausted from the Hundred Years War and the Wars of the Rose's, instead being a rich and united state with a first-class navy just at the time the Turks take Constantinople and close off the Silk Road to Europeans, leading some to propose reaching India either by heading south around Africa or west across Ocean...
 

Zen9

Banned
Just saw this thread.

Lots to say but no time....

Context....how does England not get conquered by the Normans. Without the why we cannot go forward.
So WI there had been no Norman invasion (perhaps Edward the Confessor has a recognized heir?) How does this play out for England in terms of the courts, language, etc?

So no invasion, means a few Normans in a few posts but otherwise the retention of the Anglo-Norse aristocracy.
It also means the retention of land ownership. Since William claimed all of England belonged to him and his followers only held land by his determination. Still the basis of law today.
This means various people are much more independent.

This also means the church/monastery bank system survives. As this was where people banked their wealth in trust of the Church.

It's still certain that the Witan will increasingly formalise over time.

But in terms of language....
Things are very different.
Not just individual terms, but the general resistance to simplify.
After all it'sthe learned and the aristocracy that were keeping formal Anglo-Saxon going.
It's only when this 'head' is fully cut off that the ordinary speach is loosed to simplify and adsorb. Rather like the god of the forest in Princess Moanoke, English increasingly becomes a monstrous force withough restraint.

So it won't really look or sound like Dutch. The terminology is it's own. For everything from government to science to religion.
Anglish doesn't really cover it.

Legal issues are another potential very different environment. Though some sort of courts system and reform will happen eventually.
 
Last edited:
Is the posdibility of independent wales still doomed or do they have a chance at survival balancing Scotland, England, and Interested Scandinavian parties against eachother?
 

Zen9

Banned
Tricky one that.
Under the right leadership on both sides, Wales ought to have every chance to remain independent.

But it only takes a few idiots on each side for things to deteriorate.
 
Top