The P-47D-20 carried 2 125 gal wing drop tanks and a fuselage 108 gal tank, giving it the required range. The P-38J-25 carried 310 gal drop tanks for a radius of 1,300 miles, and carried almost all the latest fixes, including dive flaps. The problem wouldn't be the aircraft type but rather the production numbers. The P-51 and the Hellcat were easy fast builds. Alternate production facilities would have to cover the loss of numbers, and not Brewster or Curtiss. The British would still be operating Hurricanes in CBE through 1944.
No Mustang - Alternate escorts for the 8th?
- Thread starter joeferrito
- Start date
How do you feel about a denavalized Hellcat as a major USAF type? It was a mature aircraft in late 1942, easy to build and mantain, reliable. It could have been in action over Europe in large nunbers in 1943...
Hellcats and Corsairs were used by the USN and FAA in the European theater. The FAA in Norway and the USN in Southern France in August 1944. There's no record of the USN encountering German fighters. FAA achieved parity with German fighters encountered.
Didn't they did well against the Ki 61? That might bode well for a face off with the Bf109 and the C202. What would be its nemesis that makes you think it was so unsuited for Europe? The Fw190A?
How expensive were the Hellcat and the Corsair?
IIRC the P-51 cost half of what the P-38 cost, and slightly more then half of what the P-47 cost.
IIRC the P-51 cost half of what the P-38 cost, and slightly more then half of what the P-47 cost.
NothingNow
Banned
Looking it up, the F6F was about $15k cheaper than the P-51, but was less capable, and the F4U couldn't have cost much more than the P-47 and P-38.
Yeah but the 109g would be a considerably different opponent. It's engines were developed further and therefore it was much faster than the Japanese plane with its DB-601. Even though the 61 was tougher than the zero, it was certainly much more lightly protected than the 109. Not saying it couldn't hold its own but it might be a lot harder than the Pacific.
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They faced the Ki-61II, with the 1500HP engine and the Ki84 and did well. Japanese pilot quality was deteriorating as the war went along, but so did the Germans.
The Bf109, even in late G6 form, I think the Hellcat would have handled. It's the Fw190A8 and D9 that I'd worry about.
But in 1943, with experienced pilots, I expect the hellcat would do well, wich is why I found Leo's comment intriguing. I presume he'll have his reasons. Rate of roll?
That's why I said I thought the hellcat would hold its own against the German fighters. On the rare occasion it was used in Europe, it did pretty well. I just don't know if it would have been as effective as the US army fighters were once the Germans got used to dealing with it as a common opponent.
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von hitchofen
Banned
not so idiotic, here it is
laminar-flow wing, handed Rolls Royce Merlin 130s, 2080hp each
VNE 472 mph
service ceiling 35,000 ft
4000 ft per minute rate of climb
3000 nmi range
4 Hispano 404 20mm Cannon
von hitchofen
Banned
from RN carriers it was pretty damn good, downed two JG5 Bf109s and one FW190 off Norway in 1944...
not so good for high-altitude work, but strafing LW on the ground - no problem
Those figures would make the Hellcat much cheaper than the P-40, which lasted in production until 1944 because it was very cheap and easily built. Some quoted figures don't include GFE such as engines, guns and radios. The F4U was cited as being half-again more than a Hellcat.
My point with Hellcat in ETO is that the purpose of the Mustang is air superiority. The Hellcat could hold it's own but could not dominate. It couldn't catch an Me-410. You can't dominate what you can't catch. In naval strikes, the enemy comes to you.
The air ministry considered a Griffon Tempest. It didn't make the short list. That's why the first Tempest model was the V and the second was the VI. The Centaurus Tempest was the Tempest II. It was post-war. The Sabre engine got priority.
The Martin-Baker MB5 wouldabeen perfect for the task, but appeared late due to the Sabre-engined MB3 which killed Valentine Baker. The fact that Martin-Baker was not listed on the Ministry's approved aircraft company list meant that Martin was tilting at windmills anyway. A waste of brilliant engineering due to Bureaucratic protocol.
Turbo-prop Meteors and DH Hornets are post-war aircraft. The Merlin 130s were a piece of work, but work done too late.
von hitchofen
Banned
like the Sea Fury, Tigercat and Bearcat, too late for the war they were designed for
honestly can't think of anything that would successfully stand in for Mustang...sure sign of a vital war machine
anything with the same range would be useless as single-seat-fighter
anything with similar performance/manoeuvrability would struggle to get to the Ruhr, let alone Berlin
Packard-Merlin Airacobra?
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There were various schemes to fit the Spitfire with additional fuel tanks. Worked in that it improved the Spit's range to on par with the P-51, but when the extra tanks were full it had negative effects on the Spit's handling. In OTL with the P-51 avalible the project was dropped, but without the Mustang it's possible that such a scheme would have been pushed on with despite it's downsides...
Alternatively, push the P-40 to it's limits sooner and hit something like the XP-40Q in 1943-44 (in OTL turned down because P-51s and P-47s were streaming off the production line).
Alternatively, push the P-40 to it's limits sooner and hit something like the XP-40Q in 1943-44 (in OTL turned down because P-51s and P-47s were streaming off the production line).
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The -47N would be most likely, since it was a fairly straightforward redesign involving adding fuel tanks to the wings, after that the F4U (combat radius from land bases with drop tanks was 700+ miles, which is more than enough to escort to Berlin and back), maybe even the exceptional (although virtually still-born) F8B with its 1,200 mile combat radius on internal fuel, 6 wing guns (either .50 cal or 20mm) and 37,000 foot combat ceiling.
Interestingly, when the P-80 reached series production, it also had the combat radius necessary to reach Berlin on internal fuel.
Interestingly, when the P-80 reached series production, it also had the combat radius necessary to reach Berlin on internal fuel.
Actually the guy who would have had a stroke was Marshall.
The odds are that Corsairs would, at least initially have come with USMC pilots, and Marshall was set on "Marines will get into the ETO over my dead body!" due to what he felt was the Corps grabbing all the glory and headlines in WW I.
He wouldn't even allow a single Corsair squadron, trained with the "Tiny Tim" 11.75" rocket into the theater to make a long range strike on Reich rocket launch facilities. Better to have the missiles hitting the UK than Marines in the "Army's" war.