No Mussolini

Fearless Leader said:
What about the socialists and communists? Is there any chance of a communist Italy? IIRC they were pretty influential. Could we possibly see an Italian civil war along the lines of the Spanish Civil War?
The strikes and the civil disturbances after the end of WW1 were not so excessive: it was more the difficulty of reintegrating millions of soldiers to civilian life after 4 years of war than anything else (the blindness ahd greed of the industrialists and the big land owners contributed too). IMHO, there is no chance to go toward a civil war, even without Mussolini taking power.
The monarchy is strong, and supported by the army. The church is also quite strong. The main portion of the left belongs to the Socialist party, which is looking for economic and welfare improvements for labor, but is not interested in a revolution and acts within the parliamentarian system.
 
WI: Mussolini dies during WWI

During WWI, a grenade fell near Mussolini, fighting in the trenches, and poured a shower of shrapnels over him.

In OTL, he was found and saved. But what if the medics didn't found him, or the grenade fell just a couple of metres more near?

In Italy, few would change 'til 1921, when in OTL the Fasci started attacking newspapers, parties and co-ops; but still D'Annunzio would occupy Fiume, and probably another dictator or just an extremely right-wing president would rise to power. But then? And what of the Reich? Anschluss in 1934? And how the social facade of the regime would have evolved, without Mussolini's example?
 
There were other fascists in Italy. Without Mussolini, they probably wouldn't be able to accomplish the march on Rome but a more right wing moderate (fascism is a 'third way' supposedly) possibly under Ciano would exploit sentiment to get into goverment democratically. Like the nazis rise but less violent and extreme.

Jim
 
Been discussed a few times in one way or another.

Here's a recent one:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=124142&highlight=mussolini

Long story short no Mussy doesn't necessarily mean no Fascism as there were others such as D'Annuzio, Graziani and Balbo that were central to Fascism's rise to power, not to mention a plethora of various philosphies under the Fascist blanket such as Futurism, Corporatism, etc.

With the real fears of a Socialist/Communist takeover, the monarchy, agraria landowners, industry and military were eager to back any alternative and the Blackshirts would be there to fill that gap.

We'd see a different Fascism, perhaps with D'A as the central figure, perhaps more of a "grand counsil" or triumvirate kind of corporative state than a single cult-of-personality dictatorship. Perhaps the infighting tears it apart sooner without the central dominance or perhaps it remains nominally pseudo-democratic. Interestingly, without Mussie's obsession with wars of conquest this could avoid many of the foreign adventures that doomed Fascist Italy OTL.

If it's any less of a bureaucratic bluff/opera is anyone's guess...
 
There were other fascists in Italy. Without Mussolini, they probably wouldn't be able to accomplish the march on Rome but a more right wing moderate (fascism is a 'third way' supposedly) possibly under Ciano would exploit sentiment to get into goverment democratically. Like the nazis rise but less violent and extreme.

Jim

Interesting point on the "right wing moderate", although I don't necessarily see Ciano becoming grand poobah without Mussie. C basically rose to power by marrying the boss' daughter. My Lira are on Balbo or Graziani.

Edit: The March on Rome was organized mostly by the Quadrumvirate (Mussie didn't even participate, IIRC). Mussie's big contribution early on was in coordinating the disparate factions, notably while jockeying himself to the forefront, much as how he ran the country as Duce. Ironically he'd held back the March until the political situation was better (he was a cautious opportunist in all matters except war, where he could go the opposite extreme). Without him the march might happen sooner, which could lead to an earlier takeover but also could happen *too soon* and meet opposition by the Army, which would doom Fascism!
 
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Been discussed a few times in one way or another.

Here's a recent one:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=124142&highlight=mussolini

Long story short no Mussy doesn't necessarily mean no Fascism as there were others such as D'Annuzio, Graziani and Balbo that were central to Fascism's rise to power, not to mention a plethora of various philosphies under the Fascist blanket such as Futurism, Corporatism, etc.

With the real fears of a Socialist/Communist takeover, the monarchy, agraria landowners, industry and military were eager to back any alternative and the Blackshirts would be there to fill that gap.

We'd see a different Fascism, perhaps with D'A as the central figure, perhaps more of a "grand counsil" or triumvirate kind of corporative state than a single cult-of-personality dictatorship. Perhaps the infighting tears it apart sooner without the central dominance or perhaps it remains nominally pseudo-democratic. Interestingly, without Mussie's obsession with wars of conquest this could avoid many of the foreign adventures that doomed Fascist Italy OTL.

If it's any less of a bureaucratic bluff/opera is anyone's guess...

Interesting point on the "right wing moderate", although I don't necessarily see Ciano becoming grand poobah without Mussie. C basically rose to power by marrying the boss' daughter. My Lira are on Balbo or Graziani.

Edit: The March on Rome was organized mostly by the Quadrumvirate (Mussie didn't even participate, IIRC). Mussie's big contribution early on was in coordinating the disparate factions, notably while jockeying himself to the forefront, much as how he ran the country as Duce. Ironically he'd held back the March until the political situation was better (he was a cautious opportunist in all matters except war, where he could go the opposite extreme). Without him the march might happen sooner, which could lead to an earlier takeover but also could happen *too soon* and meet opposition by the Army, which would doom Fascism!

There were other fascists in Italy. Without Mussolini, they probably wouldn't be able to accomplish the march on Rome but a more right wing moderate (fascism is a 'third way' supposedly) possibly under Ciano would exploit sentiment to get into goverment democratically. Like the nazis rise but less violent and extreme.

Jim

But I'm talking about a death BEFORE the rise of Fascism. There were the futurists, yeah, and D'Annunzio, but they were not Mussolini. The did not have Rome's myth in mind, but just...survival of the fittest for the former, and glory for the latter. As I said, a right wing government will eventually raise, but what will it be? And what it will do?
 
Interesting point on the "right wing moderate", although I don't necessarily see Ciano becoming grand poobah without Mussie. C basically rose to power by marrying the boss' daughter. My Lira are on Balbo or Graziani.

Edit: The March on Rome was organized mostly by the Quadrumvirate (Mussie didn't even participate, IIRC). Mussie's big contribution early on was in coordinating the disparate factions, notably while jockeying himself to the forefront, much as how he ran the country as Duce. Ironically he'd held back the March until the political situation was better (he was a cautious opportunist in all matters except war, where he could go the opposite extreme). Without him the march might happen sooner, which could lead to an earlier takeover but also could happen *too soon* and meet opposition by the Army, which would doom Fascism!

Sorry, by not accomplish I didn't mean not try I meant the King actually stopping them (OTL, he could have smashed them but because of the situation, and hes interest in Fascism he told the army not to declare martial law and stop them).

Mussie was actually a SOCIALIST and PACIFIST before WWI so I don't know what would happen if Fascism hadn't taken form by his death.

Jim
 
But I'm talking about a death BEFORE the rise of Fascism. There were the futurists, yeah, and D'Annunzio, but they were not Mussolini. The did not have Rome's myth in mind, but just...survival of the fittest for the former, and glory for the latter. As I said, a right wing government will eventually raise, but what will it be? And what it will do?

There were still the Fasci and the various "Fascist" groups even before WWI, plus the various Futurist, Syndicalist, and Nationalist groups. Mussie helped to bring many of these groups together under one party, but like a lot of the Fascist leaders was more opportunist than innovator. Without Mussie there's still "Fascism", but it will be different and possibly less successful.

According to the Great and Omnipotent Source on All Learning:

Wikipedia said:
[The term Fascism] was first used in...the 1870s by groups of revolutionary democrats in Sicily, to describe themselves. The most famous of these groups was the Fasci Siciliani during 1895–96.[2] Thereafter, the word retained revolutionary connotations. It was these connotations which made it attractive, for example, to young nationalists who demanded Italian intervention in World War I. The fasci they formed were scattered over Italy, and it was to one of these spontaneously created groups, devoid of party affiliations, that Benito Mussolini belonged.[3] On August 18, 1914, Alceste de Ambris speaking from the rostrum of the Milanese Syndical Union (USM) began a ferocious attack against neutrality and urged intervention against German reaction and the necessity of aiding France and the United Kingdom in WWI. He equated the war with the French Revolution. This caused a deep split within the Unione Sindacale Italiana (USI). The majority opted for neutrality. The Parma Labor Chamber, the USM, and other radical syndicalists left the USI and on October 1, 1914, founded the Fasci d'Azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista. On October 5, Angelo Oliviero Olivetti published their manifesto in the first issue of a new series of Pagine libere. Mussolini shortly thereafter joined this group and took leadership.[4]
On December 11, 1914, Mussolini started a political group, Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria, which was a fusion of two other movements: the above group, Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista and a previous group he started called the Fasci autonomi d'azione rivoluzionaria.[5]

Note Mussolini's pre-war involvement in the movement.
 
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