No mongols effect on Russia
- Thread starter Lateknight
- Start date
Not so simple awnser you have a Russia still divided in states. You won't see no Moscow at least as a major center, Kiev will decline but much slowly. You would also butterfly away Belorussian and Ukrainian, as Lithuania may not rise or take as much Russian land. You'll also see Russians in Galicia as well, so theoretically a smaller Poland.
No Mongol Invasion means a greater multiplicity of rival principalities, yet it's hard to say if one would have ever gotten the upper hand over all the others. Probably not, not without some encouragement from without.
No 'Tartar Yoke' means no Alexander Nevskii, and no Grand Principality of Muscovy. Greater German/Scandinavian/Hungarian/Polish success in conquering eastward (instead of being driven west by the Horde)---possible coalescence of a greater Russian state in the mid-1400s in reaction to western pressure/intervention/conquest (the aforementioned 'encouragement' factor).
Novgorod still a rich, though fractured, republic, with possibly greater influence in the north.
Much stronger Orthodox tradition, greater church influence (possible theocratic government under a Metropolitan?). Kiev would be the natural center of this polity, with the possibility of extending influence over most of Ruthenia/modern-day OTL Ukraine.
Also, much stronger Christian presence in the Black Sea, especially the Crimea. More Genoese outposts and more successful Hungarian conquest of the Cuman and Pecheneg tribes lead to a coalescence of Russian authority (whenever it happens) further to the north, except in the case a somehow-resurgent Kievan Rus' (even possible?) or the aforementioned Metropolis of Kiev.
No 'Tartar Yoke' means no Alexander Nevskii, and no Grand Principality of Muscovy. Greater German/Scandinavian/Hungarian/Polish success in conquering eastward (instead of being driven west by the Horde)---possible coalescence of a greater Russian state in the mid-1400s in reaction to western pressure/intervention/conquest (the aforementioned 'encouragement' factor).
Novgorod still a rich, though fractured, republic, with possibly greater influence in the north.
Much stronger Orthodox tradition, greater church influence (possible theocratic government under a Metropolitan?). Kiev would be the natural center of this polity, with the possibility of extending influence over most of Ruthenia/modern-day OTL Ukraine.
Also, much stronger Christian presence in the Black Sea, especially the Crimea. More Genoese outposts and more successful Hungarian conquest of the Cuman and Pecheneg tribes lead to a coalescence of Russian authority (whenever it happens) further to the north, except in the case a somehow-resurgent Kievan Rus' (even possible?) or the aforementioned Metropolis of Kiev.
Delvestius
Banned
I could see it being the case. Princely oligarchy would still be firmly in place though.
Different ethnical compositions of the large 'Ex-USSR' area, perhaps some turkish states as the Crimean Tatar Khanate butterflied away?
No that stretching it, the authoritarian tradition of Russia came from Ivan the Terrible who practically killed most of the nobility and tried to centralize authority at all costs.
Lateknight
Banned
Didn't he spend his reigme fighting tatars(People only because mongols )though? I think they burned Moscow down on his watch.
Not entirely, Ivan the Terrible started the Livonian War. Prior to that he also fought the Tartars of Kazan and Astrakhan, who pretty much largely had Muscovy/Russia intervene in their affairs anyway. The only Tartars who did burn Muscovy were the Crimean Tartars during the Livonian War, they were practically vassals of the Ottomans.
Domestically killing off nobles, and having the common people ruled by a combination of the KGB the Mafia, and the Knights Templar, didn't do wonders for Russia.
Not that a standard aristocratic-dominated medieval society is exactly a paradise for the common folk, either.
And Ivan IV's nazguls were disbanded just 7 years after creation.
While I can’t agree with previous posters on the subject of Ivan IV( by the way why his nickname is English is “Terrible”? Is it just a bad translation of Russian «Грозный» or authentic nickname?) I won’t start a holy war on the subject here and answer the topic caster question.
What Mongols did was destroying of two of the three main centers of power – Kiev and Chernigov (the third one is Vladimir and it is the birthplace of OTL Russia). In TTL while it is possible that Russia would remain several independent states( I think about a west-Russian state around Galich, Southern state around Kiev-Chernigov-Pereslavl that also comtrols Ryazan and probably Smolensk and Northern Russian state around Vladimir-Novgorod) what I believe much more probable that Russia would still be unified but not by Vladimir-descendent principality but either by Kiev or Chernigov. Say in case Battle of Kalka occurs I would bet my money on Mikhail of Chernigov and his descendants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_of_Chernigov ) who by 1239 controlled the principalities of Kiev, Chernigov and Galich. If the battle of Kalka does not occurs it is much more tricky to determine but I still think that Chernigov is the strongest principality and can eventually unify all Russia.
What Mongols did was destroying of two of the three main centers of power – Kiev and Chernigov (the third one is Vladimir and it is the birthplace of OTL Russia). In TTL while it is possible that Russia would remain several independent states( I think about a west-Russian state around Galich, Southern state around Kiev-Chernigov-Pereslavl that also comtrols Ryazan and probably Smolensk and Northern Russian state around Vladimir-Novgorod) what I believe much more probable that Russia would still be unified but not by Vladimir-descendent principality but either by Kiev or Chernigov. Say in case Battle of Kalka occurs I would bet my money on Mikhail of Chernigov and his descendants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_of_Chernigov ) who by 1239 controlled the principalities of Kiev, Chernigov and Galich. If the battle of Kalka does not occurs it is much more tricky to determine but I still think that Chernigov is the strongest principality and can eventually unify all Russia.
But that does not rule out a Mongol influence. Of course all countriies were authoritarian to some extent at that time, but the question is why Russia is so much more authoritarian.