No Mongol Empire

Agree. Without the mongol hordes, the christian world, particularly the oriental christian world, would be in a much better shape to compete with the muslim peoples.
Err, no. The Mongols basically destroyed the Muslim world. Max addresses this in chaos: before Genghis Khan, Khwarezm was one of the richest Muslim areas. But the Mongols laid waste to it and destroyed centuries of agricultural development. They killed huge amounts of Muslims in Persia, Iraq, etc. And were mostly friendly to the Christians (just do some research about the Franco-Mongol alliance to get a sense of this).

Without the Mongol hordes, the Muslim world will be in a much better shape to compete with the Christian world. (;))
 
I know that Hiduism is noot Budhism, but it orrignineated from it so there are similarities, like with Christianity/Islam/Judaism. And now look at China, 100 million Christians and fastest growing rate of all religions in any countrie.

And so? Using Christianity in China is a bad example because it's too early to tell- the previous evangelical religion to hit China was Buddhism. Buddhism gained quite a lot of dominance in China when it first arrived and there was considerable tension between Buddhists and Taoists until the foreign religion was syncreticised into Chinese Folk religion. If you look at historical precedent in a few hundred years you might see Chinese Christianity become syncreticised with Chinese Folk Religion just as Buddhism did.

Also what does China have to do with India? The two cultures are very, very dissimilar. A simple and very, very rough analogy would be China:India as Rome:Greece but that's not very useful because it's so vague. Hendryk and I have talked quite a bit before about some of the differences, notably in their approaches to philosophy- the importance of praxis to Chinese culture as opposed to the Indian obsession with the abstract. The best example wold be Communism- you introduce Communism to China and millions of peasants die in its practical application. Introduce it to India and thousands of intellectuals debate it to the high heavens and schism incessantly.

In any case it's not really useful to see Buddhism as originating from Hinduism. This stems from the inadequacy of trying to apply Abrahamic notions of exclusivity to Dharmic religions. Hinduism isn't really one religion- it's a vast spectrum of folk religions sharing the Dharmic mythology and cosmology. Buddhism (along with Jainism) adopted a more abstract line to the Dharmic philosophy just as a thousand years later Sikhism would adopt a "protestant" line.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but basically I'll get to the point- India is not China and trying to extrapolate the effect of something on one by looking at the other isn't very useful.
 
Time for my 2 cents.

See Max's epic TL 'Chaos'.

Thx.

But if it did happen then wouldn't Persia be stronger then in OTL? I'm not saying that it would lead to a muslim dominated world, just a stronger central Asia.

At this time, Persia was a part of Choresm / Khwarezm.

Oh definitely a stronger Central Asia for sure. I was complaining about how the muslim world fared to worse in Max's Chaos TL. The should be stronger Central Asia in that TL eventually caved in before the western powers eventually....

The Muslim world would be stronger (or at least unscathed), but so would be Russia (which eventually conquers Choresm in the Chaos TL).

Not to mention how old the Chaos TL is. Sure, it is epic, but it is quite dated. I feel that our understanding of AH has grown way past that. Still a good read though.

That surprised me too...

Only until around 1750 or so, after that it starts going off the deep end. (IMO)

How so, IYO?

wait... we are forgetting China... no Mongol Empire means alotta shit. i think... that the Mongol Empire heads to Manchuria and Korea. then into Southeast Siberia. then west towards eastern Turkestan. but only the norther Half or so. then the eastern half of the "central asia -istans" Russia is definitely strong. the successor to Ghengis stops the advance.. this is the most realistic thing i can think of. they might get China too. but the Yuan Dynasty would be very different.

No Mongols, no Yuan dynasty.

Well I also thing that the Ottomans would be much weaker.
Seeing as the Georgian Kingdom had a population of about 10 million before the Mongolian invasion, (to compare the British ilse had 7 at that time.) A stronger Georia would balance the powerbetween the Muslims and Christians there. And while the Arabic countries too would be much stronger, I dont really think that Turks and Arabs would work together too well.

Interesting. So Georgia's population was twice as high as it is today?

But yes, the Muslim world would be too split to use its full strength against Europe. And I think to really rule the world, they'd have to use the world-changing inventions: Gunpowder, the printing press, electricity and the steam machine. Before the Europeans or someone else does it.

Europe itself would have less crusades, maybe non, since the muslims would be stronger and probably less hatefull towards the christians. Hence they would not throw the priest out of yerusalem, hence no reason for crusades.

The crusades started before Genghis, they'd go on without him. But with the Muslims stronger, they'd kick the crusaders out earlier (which happens in my Chaos TL).

The most probable result for Mongol-less world would be that there would be no Russia as an unified state. (Most discussions of that POD on Russian AH forum ended up with two to five "Russian" states in European Russia alone).

That's a probable outcome. But I'm no Russian.

Expansionist Chinese Dynasty.

Why? Most Chinese dynasties weren't. For the start, you may have to replace the Song dynasty.

Without a Pax Mongolica, Marco Polo could not have traveled across Asia, so knowledge of the wonders and spices of the east would not have inspired future explorers, so the Age of Exploration may have been postponed. Columbus might not have sailed west looking for the Great Khan.

Good point.

And who exactly laughed at Rus' in 1237? Or in 1037?

Most people didn't even know about its existence...

On the other hand, there was the negative (from the Modern Russian point-of-view) scenario with Hungary, Poland and Lithuania conquering Western Rus' as early as 13th century, Karelian and Finnish lands occupied by Swedes and Baltic Germans, and North-Eastern Rus' under pressure from Volga Bulgars.

Can't really imagine. Russia's a bit too big for that. Even if someone managed to conquer it, at the end the conquerors might be absorbed by the population. Similar thing as in China.

Japan was balkanized enough for three centuries after the Khubilai-Khan's invasion attempts. Sometimes there were even two Emperors. Another threat would appear inevitably - for example, the Europeans in the 16th century.

True thing.

Poland-Lithuania was country next to the Muscovy, and it was strong enough to capture Moscow. I don't think they would be stronger without Mongolian rule over Rus'.

But that was only once, and very temporary.

I am asuming the idea of thinking of Russians as having an "Asiatic" mindset and the superiority complex by others during Imperial Russia. I think it probably would affect Russia's supposed paranoid mindset where they constantly fear dominance by a foreign power (i.e. due to Mongol subjugation and French and German invasions).

Definitely true.

Though that poster will really have to fill me in on WHY they think that will butterfly away the post 1220 crusades. Also, there is no need to postulate Muslim India, there already WAS Muslim India, the Mughals. Maybe it leads to a large muslim population but it's not going to result in a majority muslim subcontinent.

The crusaders might stop eventually when the Muslims kick them out and they think the whole thing (conquering Jerusalem back) has become futile.
And remember that the Mughals were descendents of the Mongols.

Depends mostly on why and how that comes to pass.
Do they all starve or end up as fugitives due to a yak desease?
Which does not infect humans or any other kind of companion animals?
And when?

Or do they just make up their mind at some point and prefer to ramble around
in their homelands?

Or does the people just vanish from earth?

In the Chaos TL, I removed Genghis Khan. Remember, he not only united the Mongols, but also added the other steppe people. Without him, they'd probably have fought among themselves.

I know that Hiduism is noot Budhism, but it orrignineated from it so there are similarities, like with Christianity/Islam/Judaism. And now look at China, 100 million Christians and fastest growing rate of all religions in any countrie.

I dont say that it would be easy, but with a strong western boarder, they might have moved eastwards. And while they had some control over India for some time, they mainly used it to get money/ supplies for the campaign in the west.

Who's "they"? The Indians? The Muslims? The Chinese?
 
Interesting. So Georgia's population was twice as high as it is today?
yes it was, but not only that, two hundred years ago, the population of Georiga was only a quarter of a million, maybe less, thats why they "joined" with Russia. The decline of Population was cathastrophal, since most people were either slothered or reseateled, e.g in Iran, (there are about 50.000-100.000 people who still claim to be georgians, which after centurys of not beein allowed to show cultural identity is notworthy). Then under Stalin (who himself was a georgian) many died again, the number is unknown, but could be near a million, maybe more (over years of course).


But yes, the Muslim world would be too split to use its full strength against Europe. And I think to really rule the world, they'd have to use the world-changing inventions: Gunpowder, the printing press, electricity and the steam machine. Before the Europeans or someone else does it.

If they reached China, they might have a shot at discovering Gonpowder, the muslims had less problems taking ideas from nonmuslims than Christians from nonchristians. (e.g the "arabic numbers" which is truly the indian numbers etc.) But if they raeched China in strength, would they be intrested in going to Europe?

The crusades started before Genghis, they'd go on without him. But with the Muslims stronger, they'd kick the crusaders out earlier (which happens in my Chaos TL).

hmm, ok, i mixed up the years then.:eek:

Who's "they"? The Indians? The Muslims? The Chinese?
[/quote]
muslims, thought that was obvious...
 
How so, IYO?
I never quite liked the spread of Socialism, the sudden uber-Germany, and the nuclear annihilation of Russia. And then the whole Veritist (forget the name) philosophy and a republic led by nano-bot wielding internet users seemed to be over-the-top.

Don't get me wrong though, it's still my favorite TL on the board, and I know how hard it is to predict what would happen 800 years after the POD.
 
Can't really imagine. Russia's a bit too big for that. Even if someone managed to conquer it, at the end the conquerors might be absorbed by the population. Similar thing as in China.
That's a false analogy, actually. Population densities are vastly different, for one thing.
 
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