No Molotov-Ribbenitrop Pact

Romantic

Banned
More or less what the title says. Due to "irreconcilable differences" negotiations for the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression pact fall through. How does the rest of the 20th century play out? Does the U.S.S.R. sign a pact with France and Britain? Does Hitler still invade Poland?
 

Warsie

Banned
Poland holds out longer w/o the ussr chopping at the east of it meaning France has more time to hit the western side of Germany. Hitler is able to try to get a forced peace with a rump Poland or even wish for it (he wanted Danzig and German parts of Poland and Silesia) and keeping eastern Poland as a buffer against the ussr is a good idea.

Also the soviet union would have a harder time dealing with the Baltic countries annexing them will be harder as it was otl done after Poland was fucked up and one of the causes belli was a polish submarine ending up in one of the ports in those countries. Someone correct me if wrong.

If ussr does not go after Poland then that reasoning is taken away.

Also belarusian and Ukrainian nationalists try to break free of Poland the pun was doing terror....err freedom fighting against the poles and were willing to do ethnic cleansing for it
 
That could be.

However, I should think the entire idea (from Stalin's perspective at least) was to give USSR more time to get ready for the German assault everybody knew would come.

If that is so, then No pact will then mean that Hitler will be going East pretty much faster than he did, maybe even in 1939 after Poland?

Nopact would also mean that if Hitler should go after the Baltics, he would immediately get into the USSR sphere and that may not be a good idea.

Would it have speeded up Barbarossa? could be, but then it would have exposed Hitler in the West?

Somehow, the pact was again one of those events pushing it closer to a global war. NBo pact could have meant that Hitler would have waited with Barbarossa a bit. Maybe?

Ivan
 
WW2 could end a lot sooner given Germany will either have to split its forces betwwen its western and eastern border. Or proceed as OTL with an offensive against France whilst two guys called Fritz and their dog Blondi are left facing 3/4 of the Red Army.:D

Even skriking east wont do much good as the Wehrmacht would be much weaker than OTL without the defeat of France whilst the Red Army at the very least wont be caught by surpise as per OTL.
 
Poland holds out longer w/o the ussr chopping at the east of it meaning France has more time to hit the western side of Germany. Hitler is able to try to get a forced peace with a rump Poland or even wish for it (he wanted Danzig and German parts of Poland and Silesia) and keeping eastern Poland as a buffer against the ussr is a good idea.

Also the soviet union would have a harder time dealing with the Baltic countries annexing them will be harder as it was otl done after Poland was fucked up and one of the causes belli was a polish submarine ending up in one of the ports in those countries. Someone correct me if wrong.

If ussr does not go after Poland then that reasoning is taken away.

Also belarusian and Ukrainian nationalists try to break free of Poland the pun was doing terror....err freedom fighting against the poles and were willing to do ethnic cleansing for it

1. Eastern Poland thing is probably going to happen.

2. The Baltic States all had Soviet garrisons, it is not at all an issue of difficulty for the Soviets finding the opportunity to attack the Baltic states, with Germany distracting the West's attentions, the Soviets really have all the time in the world to take over, with troops that they already had stationed in all of the Baltic States I might add.

3. Then they will find another one.

4. The Soviets will encourage this, then they will move in and kill the ones who don't accept their rule, as is often their modus operandi.
 
Russia will fight back a bit harder, because Stalin will be under no inhibitions of good behaviour from Hitler.
 
This removes WWII in 1939.

It might remove WW2 entirely. Without Molotov-Ribbentrop, the German economy is going to be pretty much toast relatively quickly. With a economic collapse, the Wehrmacht will step in and take over, with Hitler dying of a "heart attack", Hess being a puppet leader to keep things nice and official, and Goering leading the Nazis in alliance with the army. In all likelihood, the Reich keeps Austria and Czechoslovakia, and eventually strong-arms Poland into handing over the Corridor. Germany therefore ends up as a relatively powerful totalitarian state in the middle of Europe, surrounded by enemies who don't trust each other for beans
 
It might remove WW2 entirely. Without Molotov-Ribbentrop, the German economy is going to be pretty much toast relatively quickly. With a economic collapse, the Wehrmacht will step in and take over, with Hitler dying of a "heart attack", Hess being a puppet leader to keep things nice and official, and Goering leading the Nazis in alliance with the army. In all likelihood, the Reich keeps Austria and Czechoslovakia, and eventually strong-arms Poland into handing over the Corridor. Germany therefore ends up as a relatively powerful totalitarian state in the middle of Europe, surrounded by enemies who don't trust each other for beans

And because without M-R the Nazis have no guarantee of being able to avoid a war in the East while facing a sure war in the West.
 
And because without M-R the Nazis have no guarantee of being able to avoid a war in the East while facing a sure war in the West.

I'm not sure about a sure war in the West. Without Hitler in charge, the Western democracies might simply try to play the Germans and Soviets off each other until they both collapse.
 
I'm not sure about a sure war in the West. Without Hitler in charge, the Western democracies might simply try to play the Germans and Soviets off each other until they both collapse.

That's the idea, until Germany clearly established that it was not going to be the kind of guy you wanted to have in the neighborhood, a lot of people were happier with the idea that the Nazis and communists would fight.
 

HMS Erin

Banned
Why would the Soviets collapse in a timeline that has them avoiding the horrible experience of WWII? :confused: The U.S.S.R. was modernizing at a breakneck pace before, during, and after WWII. Stalin is still likely running the show until the 50s. The Soviet Union will only be stronger without the ravages of WWII.

I think Hitler would stay in control of Nazi Germany even if it does undergo an economic collapse. The Wehrmacht stuck with Hitler to the bloody end OTL, a simple recession isn't going to be suitible motivation for a coup. Even if a half-hearted attempt like Valkyre happens, my opinion is that it will end with a purge of the officer corps and a strengthening of Hitler's grip on power. I think that Hitler will "miss the timing" and muddle through a economic downturn as Britain, France, Italy and the Soviet Union modernize and get their respective acts together. Nazi Germany will probably still become an economic powerhouse in the late 1940s, and start sponsoring proxy wars in Central Europe.

The United States probably comes out of the depression early 40s, but it won't be as clearly a superpower. Its military will be smaller, and isolationism will still have a following. Japan will probably burn out in China and head home after a few years. Everyone was sponsoring the Chinese, and Japan would have run out of blood and treasure sooner or later. They'll know that taking on the undistracted west is pointless and go quietly. Japan may lag behind the rest of the world and become a second tier militaristic power, akin to somewhere like Argentina.


Eventually nuclear weapons will be invented and the world is frozen into alt-1950ish. America and Russia will be Superpowers, and more evenly matched than OTL. Britain, France and Germany will be Great Powers. Britain might even masquerade as a Superpower for a while without the bankrupting experience of WWII, but eventually the colonies will go their own way. China, Japan, and India might become Great Powers, but it really depends on how the Sino-Japanese war plays out, and on what terms India gains independence.

I'm not sure about a sure war in the West. Without Hitler in charge, the Western democracies might simply try to play the Germans and Soviets off each other until they both collapse.

If there's no invasion of Poland, appeasement will have worked. The idea was to play for time so France and Britain could build themselves up to a level where they could be sure of winning against the Nazis. By alt-1941 it will be suicidal for Germany to try taking on the Allies. Germany had pretty much maxed out on its ability to rearm and 1939, and Britain and France were just gearing up. The Allies will feel much more secure in telling Hitler "no" in any major diplomatic crises. If Hitler does press Poland about something in 1942 or whenever, the Allies will come down on him like a ton of bricks, Soviets be damned.
 
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Maybe Poland would do a deal with Germany instead and both Poland and Germany invade the Soviet Union.
so no war with Britian and France.
Without the resources captured in France and the low countries Germany would not have lasted a long fighting the Soviets.
Germany would still lose on War with Soviet Union as it never had the resources to win that war,
but Soviets might have got as far as the rhine and that could lead to war with France and Britian.

Japan would still have gone to war with America and lost. Britian and France would have fought Japan too.
 
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HMS Erin

Banned
Maybe Poland would do a deal with Germany instead and both Poland and Germany invade the Soviet Union.
so no war with Britian and France.
Without the resources captured in France and the low countries Germany would not have lasted a long fighting the Soviets.
Germany would still lose on War with Soviet Union as it never had the resources to win that war,
but Soviets might have got as far as the rhine and that could lead to war with France and Britian.

Japan would still have gone to war with America and lost.

Never. Poland was determined to avoid becoming a puppet to either nation. That pretty much means its impossible for the Soviets and Nazis to actually fight a war, because they don't border eachother. If there is a Nazi-Soviet war, it will be because Hitler goes into Poland solo, with the U.S.S.R. joining the pile-on of Germany with France and Britain. The war would be over by 1940 with victory parades through the streets of Berlin. Generally similar outcome to OTL. Poland moved west and/or ruled by a Soviet puppet regime, Germany thoroughly disarmed, and the Soviets a superpower.
 
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