No modern zionism

What are the consequences if Theodor Herzl does not propagate the idea of a Jewish state?

His initiative, though not completely unprecedented, is a very singular event in history. Also, it does not really fit into the well-assimilated social environment of wealthy Jews in Vienna. So it makes sense to raise this question.

My first impression was: It would not change a lot for the Jews in Europe.

No zionism would certainly not fuel antisemitism, but it would also only slightly slow it down, and only in so far as it would turn public attention from the Jews and the problems of their emancipation and integration.

Of course, the Middle East would look different from WWI onward.


What's your opinion?
 
The United States would be much more popular in the Middle East. Prior to the creation of Israel, America had a positive reputation in the region.
 
I think we'll see proportionally stronger Communist movements in France, Germany, the Baltics, etc. Around the turn of the century, it was very common for Jews to support Communism (primarily due to its universalist message). Jewish Nationalist (e.g. Zionist) and Communist groups often competed for membership, and early Zionism was largely socialist in nature.

It's marginally possible that the UK won't have quite as easy a time taking Palestine from the Turks, but I doubt it.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Herzl is highly overrated. He must be credited with "selling" Zionism to Western public opinion as a viable idea, but Zionist ideology had been largely developed by Jewry of Russian Empire during Alexander III reign. Try to google on Dubnov, Bilu, Hovevei Zion for more information. Settlement started and developed largely independent of Herzl. Without Herzl, Weizmann would, most likely, become a flag-bearer and main intermediary between Zionism and Western "power circles", approximately a decade later than OTL. However, it might (who knows) be enough for Zionism to miss a chance to carve "a Jewish foothold" out of dying Ottoman Empire. In such a case "national cultural autonomy" would become a mainstream school of Jewish thought, and Radical Left would gain some very valuable support (a lot of Israel's founding fathers were radical left-wing activists and sometimes militants in their countries of origin).
 
Zionism's older than you think...

Hmmm... 'Next year in Jerusalem'? Wasn't that an ancient saying?

Weitzmann = WW1 Acetone = Israel, The Final Solution just speeded it up...

...And I still say they should have bought up the Sinai and reclaimed the desert of Sin!
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Without Zionism more Jews would probably have supported Soicalism and Communism, Anti- Semitism would still be a problem, and many Jews would emigrate to the Americas after WW2, not the Middle East.
 

Susano

Banned
In such a case "national cultural autonomy" would become a mainstream school of Jewish thought, and Radical Left would gain some very valuable support (a lot of Israel's founding fathers were radical left-wing activists and sometimes militants in their countries of origin).
Im not so sure. Among the Interbellum German Jews the "Selbstauflösung" (the Self Dissolution, i.e. Assimilation into the wider German society) was all the rage. And I think that was true for most Jews in most European countries at the time. So there is a chance that without Zionism becoming popular, and barring such catastrophes as the Holocaust from happening, Judaism becomes just another religion, and loses all connotations of being something ethnic (outside of fringe some right-extremist groups remaining antisemitic.)

Hmmm... 'Next year in Jerusalem'? Wasn't that an ancient saying?
Yes, but only as a ritual. And as the joke goes, a Jew praiyng in Jerusalem: "Oh Lord, for millenia we have prayed for return to Zion, but why did you have to grant this wish to our generation?" ;)

Weitzmann = WW1 Acetone = Israel, The Final Solution just speeded it up...
I dont know about speeding up. Pre-WW2 most Zionist settlers in Palestine were, well, wild-eyed idealists with all the package that comes along that. After WW2, though, emigrating to Israel became mainstream among Jews. Even with all speeding up there might have been, without the Holocaust I dont think it will ever become mainstream, especially due to aforementioned assimilation tendencies.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Im not so sure. Among the Interbellum German Jews the "Selbstauflösung" (the Self Dissolution, i.e. Assimilation into the wider German society) was all the rage. And I think that was true for most Jews in most European countries at the time.
Nope. "National Cultural Autonomy" was the call of the day in Poland and Romania. Hungarian Jewry was mostly Germanized. And Russian Jewry tried assimilation in 1860-1917 repeatedly (Trumpeldor stayed in Russian Imperial Army after severe wound in hopes that Jewish heroism in war for Mother Russia would bring equality), without success (although I can imagine something of this nature being tried in Februarist Russia; however, just "No Herzl" does not bring Februarist Russia to life).
 
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