No Miracle at the Vistula

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

WI the Soviets had won the 1920 Battle of Warsaw?

 

[Karlos]

If Poland becomes part of the USSR the west would see communism as big a threath as nazism. If the nazis ever take power in this TL -and it could be very well- then Hitler would probably attack Poland (that is, the USSR) and fight it without western interference sometime in early 40's. He would have no doubt a lot of support from western countries. The victorious side would begin a -hopefull- cold war with the west. Don't know about Japan, they might join the Aixs in Siberia.

 

[Max Sinister]

If the Soviets not only win the battle of Warsaw, but conquer all of Poland (which are different things - don't underestimate desperate people), they might even advance into Germany, where many Communists still wanted revolution. It could be that Stresemann's nightmare of a split Germany (west of the Elbe under the French, east under the Communists) becomes true.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

prehaps the allies become so spooked about the possiblity of a soviet invasion of the west, that they allow german rearmament. This may even prevent ww2 as we know it, because the versaillies treaty is repealed to make germany a buffer to fight communism. Poor poland may get wiped out after a few years as both the soviets and germans dig in over polish soil.

 

[Tielhard]

If Warsaw then Poland. If Poland perhaps Germany falls, If Germany falls then I suggest France, Spain and Italy collapse from within. Britain and Norway end up with serious civil wars and what of Finland?

 

[stevep]

If Warsaw then Poland. If Poland perhaps Germany falls, If Germany falls then I suggest France, Spain and Italy collapse from within. Britain and Norway end up with serious civil wars and what of Finland?

If Poland falls I think the western powers will lose their concerns about German rearmament and recruit a lot of the free-corp and other German veterans to help defend Germany. Depending on how war -weary the European populations are and how reckless Lenin is. Either some form of cold-war with an enlarged Soviet empire including Poland and possibly parts of Germany or a bitter fight to the finish. In the latter case I think the Soviets are finished but Europe could be pretty conservative as a result and with a lot of communist unrest as the full horror of the Soviet type of state would be largely avoided.

Steve

 

[tinfoil]

One of the reasons why the Soviets gave up in 1920 was that they were at the extreme limit of their ability to wage sustained war. It was too soon after the Revolution and long before the 5-year plans gave Russia the economic base to wage WWII-style conflicts.

So there probably still have been a Poland, albiet the eastern boder would be more west. This might have created an environment where Weimar Republic is given more latitute for defence, and probably butterflied away the rise of National Socialists (Although some other right-wingers may have stepped in. It is difficult to imagine a more repugnant regime than the Nazis).

Conceivably, as already postulated, WWII becomes East vs West, Rightism against Leftism, as France/Germany/UK opposes USSR, with hostilities breaking out around 1944 if Stalin or a proto-Stalin succeeds Lenin.

Since Trotksy heavily favored peace with Poland rather than war, a more positive Soviet outcome may have discredited him sooner. This creates interesting Buttlerflies, as Lenin may have done more to prevent a Stalin type from dominating if he was not feuding with Trotsky.

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
Hungarians were already taken care of by that, right?

So we have Czech army ocupying large part of Silesia as OTL, but no force to evict them. Could provisional polish gov make a deal with us?
Romanians- are mainly tied down in Hungary, though they could possibly raise some ruckus in Ukraine, at least support some anti-bolsheviks.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Bright day
Hungarians were already taken care of by that, right?

So we have Czech army ocupying large part of Silesia as OTL, but no force to evict them. Could provisional polish gov make a deal with us?
Romanians- are mainly tied down in Hungary, though they could possibly raise some ruckus in Ukraine, at least support some anti-bolsheviks.

By Silesia I presume you mean just Teschen/however the hell you West Slavs spell it. Romania, IMHO, would find it preferable to fortify the eastern border and hope the Soviets don't get the breathing room they need to attack it. Actually starting the war by itself would be a bad idea.

How would Finland and the Baltic states react?

 

[Gladi]

By Silesia I presume you mean just Teschen/however the hell you West Slavs spell it. Romania, IMHO, would find it preferable to fortify the eastern border and hope the Soviets don't get the breathing room they need to attack it. Actually starting the war by itself would be a bad idea.

How would Finland and the Baltic states react?

No, by Silesia I mean Silesia, Czech Army was nearing Krakow when the Poles finally managed to send something the other way.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

No, by Silesia I mean Silesia, Czech Army was nearing Krakow when the Poles finally managed to send something the other way.

Then you also mean the Silesia that Germany controlled most of, even after the plebiscite. Check the wiki article on just what Silesia is.

Krakow's not in Silesia, BTW, but in Little Poland.

 

[Gladi]

Then you also mean the Silesia that Germany controlled most of, even after the plebiscite. Check the wiki article on just what Silesia is.

Krakow's not in Silesia, BTW, but in Little Poland.

Yes. And thanks for sending me to Wiki when I can just open history books which I trust more.

Yes I know, I just ilustrated on it that Czechs pretty much walked through Silesia completely unopposed. We were on Wisla before Poles managed to do anything.

 

[Wendell]

Surely, Germany would be beating the war drums the moment Warsaw fell...Let's hope that their foreign ministry has some value.

 

[Karlos]

Don't know about Hitler... Nazis used the fear of communism as a tool to achieve power, specially among the upper classes. In TTL, they would have a bigger fear. I guess it depends of when the war begins between east and west. If given until mid 30's, Hitler may well achieve power like in OTL. Then you have a WWII where the allies join the lesser of two devils... and this time it is not Stalin.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

If Warsaw then Poland. If Poland perhaps Germany falls, If Germany falls then I suggest France, Spain and Italy collapse from within. Britain and Norway end up with serious civil wars and what of Finland?

Ever hear of the Finno-Karelian SSR? They'd become a part of it.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Yes. And thanks for sending me to Wiki when I can just open history books which I trust more.

Yes I know, I just ilustrated on it that Czechs pretty much walked through Silesia completely unopposed. We were on Wisla before Poles managed to do anything.

Well you're not getting the point. Most of Silesia was German even after the Poles got their slice. Whatever happens to Poland in TTL, it's Germany that's going to want Silesia back.

I doubt Czechoslovakia could hold on to it even under normal circumstances (presuming the democratic state actually wants the region, which has some Poles, almost no Czechs, and quite a lot of Germans), but if the Allies need a re-armed Germany to resist the Soviets... You figure it out. The Germans would be reasonable to demand it back, they'd have the means to impose their will, and Britain and France will let them.