No Meth = no Blitz?

Osakadave

Osakadave

Came across this interesting book review/interview today: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...-ohler-adolf-hitler-nazi-drug-abuse-interview

I knew Hitler was infamously a druggie, but of particular interest was this passage:

"...the invasion of France was made possible by the drugs. No drugs, no invasion. When Hitler heard about the plan to invade through Ardennes, he loved it [the allies were massed in northern Belgium]. But the high command said: it’s not possible, at night we have to rest, and they [the allies] will retreat and we will be stuck in the mountains. But then the stimulant decree was released, and that enabled them to stay awake for three days and three nights. Rommel [who then led one of the panzer divisions] and all those tank commanders were high – and without the tanks, they certainly wouldn’t have won."

So, if we posit an late 19th/rarly 20th C. POD in which the various relatives of amphetamine weren't synthesized by WWII, would the German invasions still work?
 

Deleted member 1487

All the major militaries had as of WW2 and still have some sort of stimulant to keep their troops going over a long mission. Stimulants really helped things, but they probably weren't absolutely necessary to keeping the offensive going. There is too much sensationalism about drug use in WW2 to sell books these days.
 
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undeadpixel

Banned
Detroit+rock+salt.JPG
 

Carl Schwamberger

The Guardian article is BS. Perviten was used by a portion of the German soldiers but not remotely a majority. I've read dozens of accounts and autobiography from German soldiers & found two or perhaps three that mention the stuff at all.
 

Minchandre

Osakadave said:
"...the invasion of France was made possible by the drugs. No drugs, no invasion. When Hitler heard about the plan to invade through Ardennes, he loved it [the allies were massed in northern Belgium]. But the high command said: it’s not possible, at night we have to rest, and they [the allies] will retreat and we will be stuck in the mountains. But then the stimulant decree was released, and that enabled them to stay awake for three days and three nights. Rommel [who then led one of the panzer divisions] and all those tank commanders were high – and without the tanks, they certainly wouldn’t have won."
Click to expand...

This is an exaggeration at best. If they hadn't had amphetamine, they would have been powered by coffee and cigarettes, and maybe cocaine for the officers. And I severely doubt they were literally awake for three days and three nights, especially not the tank crews. They probably slept in snatches of a few hours at a time, trading off drivers, napping while waiting for orders, etc. The officers probably took turns napping and being duty officer. It would take a lot of amphetamine to keep you awake for 72 hours straight, and you probably wouldn't have very good ideas at that point.

One thing that amphetamine does give you that coffee and cigarettes don't (though cocaine does) is a feeling of supreme confidence and invincibility, which theoretically might have helped the Germans press their morale advantage. But that was probably a minor effect, if any.
 
marathag

marathag

Carl Schwamberger said:
The Guardian article is BS. Perviten was used by a portion of the German soldiers but not remotely a majority. I've read dozens of accounts and autobiography from German soldiers & found two or perhaps three that mention the stuff at all.
Click to expand...

Millions of tablets were made: somebody had to be taking it.

between April and July of 1940, more than 35 million three-milligram doses of Pervitin were manufactured for the German army and air force.
The dose was one or two tablets 'as needed'
 
marathag

marathag

Booster Gold said:
Really, a blog post without a single link therein? That's not really the strongest foundation upon which to build an argument.
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Feel free to get a better cite.

Don't like the one I had, then try this
http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-nazi-death-machine-hitler-s-drugged-soldiers-a-354606.html

Same number.

And from that page, seems some Nazis saw a downside

Even then, doctors were concerned about the fact that the regeneration phase after taking the drug was becoming increasingly long, and that the effect was gradually decreasing among frequent users. In isolated cases, users experienced health problems like excessive perspiration and circulatory disorders, and there were even a few deaths. Leonardo Conti, the German Reich's minister of health and an adherent of Adolf Hitler's belief in asceticism, attempted to restrict the use of the pill, but was only moderately successful, at least when it came to the Wehrmacht. Although Pervitin was classified as a restricted substance on July 1, 1941, under the Opium Law, ten million tablets were shipped to troops that same year.
 

Booster Gold

marathag said:
Feel free to get a better cite.

Don't like the one I had, then try this
http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-nazi-death-machine-hitler-s-drugged-soldiers-a-354606.html

Same number.

And from that page, seems some Nazis saw a downside

Even then, doctors were concerned about the fact that the regeneration phase after taking the drug was becoming increasingly long, and that the effect was gradually decreasing among frequent users. In isolated cases, users experienced health problems like excessive perspiration and circulatory disorders, and there were even a few deaths. Leonardo Conti, the German Reich's minister of health and an adherent of Adolf Hitler's belief in asceticism, attempted to restrict the use of the pill, but was only moderately successful, at least when it came to the Wehrmacht. Although Pervitin was classified as a restricted substance on July 1, 1941, under the Opium Law, ten million tablets were shipped to troops that same year.
Click to expand...
,
Yeah, I tend not to put effort into trying to prove things I don't actually believe...

And while Der Spiegel is more reputable than Random Blog Post, it doesn't actually provide any primary sources either. And the media's not above repeating poorly sourced claims, so...
 

Johnrankins

marathag said:
Millions of tablets were made: somebody had to be taking it.

between April and July of 1940, more than 35 million three-milligram doses of Pervitin were manufactured for the German army and air force.
The dose was one or two tablets 'as needed'
Click to expand...

For an army of over 6 million men which comes out to 6 tablets per soldier over a four month period. That means that it was used fairly infrequently as a whole. There were probably some units that used it fairly frequently with the vast majority using rarely if at all.
 
marathag

marathag

Booster Gold said:
,
Yeah, I tend not to put effort into trying to prove things I don't actually believe...

And while Der Spiegel is more reputable than Random Blog Post, it doesn't actually provide any primary sources either. And the media's not above repeating poorly sourced claims, so...
Click to expand...

So get something to disprove it,
or keep quiet
 
marathag

marathag

Johnrankins said:
For an army of over 6 million men which comes out to 6 tablets per soldier over a four month period. That means that it was used fairly infrequently as a whole. There were probably some units that used it fairly frequently with the vast majority using rarely if at all.
Click to expand...

Tooth to Tail Ratio and all that would adjust that.
 

EMTSATX

Banned
I saw a pretty good program on this on the military channel. The Heer ate this stuff like candy on the Eastern front. When it w running low, there were a lot of letters written home asking that Perviten be sent like you would ask for candy and such.

Instead of asking if it benefitted the Nazis maybe the thought should be if it hurt.

The program did make the point that Perviten was out lawed to the German populace. It was a very good show. I believe it is available on demand. It did bring up the fact that the west used just as much. It showed packaging (still full of product) full of pure speed. It had a crown symbol on it, the symbol of the drug company that made it. I have no clue how long that stuff lasts but the Government has a ton of it.
 
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