No Mantzikert disaster?

IMO the more interesting POD would not be the lack of loss at Manzikert, but better handling of the aftermath of Manzikert. If, say, Michael VII was to abide by the treaty made by Romanus, Manzikert would have been a mere footnote in Byzantine history, as it is not the battle itself, but the handling of its outcome that resulted in such a disaster.

However, if we are to go with Byzantine victory at Manzikert, let's just say they win it in some shape or form - perhaps Andronikos Doukas does move his troops forward like he was supposed to, and attack the already engaged Seljuks, resulting in annihilation or otherwise defeat of the Seljuks. Abdul is correct in saying that the Seljuk Empire will not be defeated if somehow Asp Arslan is beaten - it might redirect Seljuk expansionism, but not much more. After all, the Seljuks apparently were quite interested in Fatimid Egypt at the time, and as such, defeat at Manzikert might simply reroute their expansionism towards Egypt, which was apparently their original intention anyway.

Romanus is unlikely to stay on the throne for very long though. He has too many enemies, and the first slip-up will result in him being dethroned. Even if he does NOT slip up, he is still running a very high risk of being assassinated, or otherwise plotted against. So, even with victory at Manzikert and no military disasters, I don't see Romanus lasting past 1180 barring a miracle. But then, he can undo at least some of the damage, to where the thematic system left to his successor is going to be fully functional again.

If his successor is Alexios Komnenos, then he should be able to do something with it... the problem with Alexios (and his entire dynasty) is the nepotism, resulting in further "Westernization" of Byzantine power structure, and eventual feudalization of the Empire. But then, if the theme system is working, then perhaps Alexios will not end up doing the same as in OTL... and with no loss of Anatolia, there will be no need for calling for Crusades.

I still see the Crusades happening at some point soon, but the exact specifics might be different, and the Crusaders are more likely than not to take a naval route, if Byzantium is still strong, and unwilling to yield. With Alexios at helm, it is almost a certainty, since, unlike OTL, he will not need the Crusaders, and they will be a major distraction.

The problem with Byzantium at the time was a rather unique set of circumstances that were created out of the end of the Macedonian dynasty. If Alexios is enthroned with no Manzikert, Byzantium is almost certainly not going to suffer the same kind of problems as before. Considering that if there is no Michael Parapinaces, it could lessen the Norman involvement in the Imperial affairs (he was used as an excuse to get involved by the Guiscards).

In other words, the next Imperial project is likely to be a move to reconquer Italy/Sicily. When the Empire that was NOT damaged by Manzikert is going to have a go at it... anything can happen. Beyond that it is hard to say. Just because the circumstances of the XIth century were unique does not mean they cannot be repeated, and that another Manzikert later will not occur, spurring another reversal in the Imperial fortunes.
 
Ahoj!
I do not believe there would be any Crusader States. The crusade was a snowballed reaction to a Byzantine appeal for volunteers to fight the Seldjuks.
No Manzikert - no loss of Anatolia, which historically supplied the Empire with soldiers - no appeal to the West.

Borys

That's not necessarily true - even a victory at Manzikert is not going to solve all the Empire's problems, and after Arp Arslan dies, it's Round 2, and the empire will need all the help it can get. Remember that in OTL Alexios didn't expect the massive Crusader army that showed up and was actually terrified of it. On the other hand, this empire is in a better position to control and direct a Crusader army.
 
Well, the lack of desire to rule Muslim populations did not prevent the conquest of Cilicia, where AFAIK a "convert or leave" policy was implemented.
Please define "overwhelmingly" - combined Syria+Lebanon today has some 15% Christians - it is likely that around 1100 this percentage was same, or higher. Before Manzikert, since 969 they have held Antioch and a swath of northern Syria. Also, the Byzantines had the option of reversing the Edict of Ummar, which would do wonders - from their viepoint - about the "overwhelmingly Muslim" issue.

I do not comment on Egypt, as I know nothing about it. I am talking about Syria (the historical Syria, not today's Syrian Republic).

Borys

It would probably be a little higher, but that's still overwhelmingly Muslim. Cilicia is a different situation, as it still had a large Christian population and was strategically important to the defense of Anatolia. Trying to push into the Levant and Egypt will just give the empire a large and hostile population to deal with and overextend the empire at a time when it just can't affort to do this. I would concentrate on pushing a bit further into Armenia to establish a stronger defense perimeter, then concentrate on Byzantifying Bulgaria, maybe trying for Sicily.
 
It would probably be a little higher, but that's still overwhelmingly Muslim. Cilicia is a different situation, as it still had a large Christian population and was strategically important to the defense of Anatolia. Trying to push into the Levant and Egypt will just give the empire a large and hostile population to deal with and overextend the empire at a time when it just can't affort to do this. I would concentrate on pushing a bit further into Armenia to establish a stronger defense perimeter, then concentrate on Byzantifying Bulgaria, maybe trying for Sicily.

At this stage Sicily might be a bit harder than Southern Italy. Sicily is already in the hands of Guiscard and his successors, who are a difficult group to break, as it is quickly becoming their main base. Southern Italy, their hold is not as strong in yet, and given that Bari was lost only in 1071, there is a reasonable chance the Byzantines might be successful with lesser effort than in case of Sicily. So, any reasonable Byzantine Emperor, when faced with choice of Sicily or Southern Italy/Apulia is likely to go for Apulia first, and then use it as beachhead.
 
Alternatively a Byzantine Empire with time to recover might well feel the need to put paid to those Normans before they do any more harm. Whether they would be able to do so is another matter.

Egypt, Syria, etc. had been lost by the Byzantines for several centuries, nor was there a viable Christian population to base a revival on.

The Crusades would probably have taken place for the reasons Abdul mentions, and the only higher degree of control the Byzantines might have had would be based purely on their greater degree of wealth and military force. I'm sure we're all familiar with how the First Crusade arrived, raping and pillaging Jews and half the Balkans first, only 21 years after the cry for help had been sent out.;)
 
Alternatively a Byzantine Empire with time to recover might well feel the need to put paid to those Normans before they do any more harm. Whether they would be able to do so is another matter.

Egypt, Syria, etc. had been lost by the Byzantines for several centuries, nor was there a viable Christian population to base a revival on.

The Crusades would probably have taken place for the reasons Abdul mentions, and the only higher degree of control the Byzantines might have had would be based purely on their greater degree of wealth and military force. I'm sure we're all familiar with how the First Crusade arrived, raping and pillaging Jews and half the Balkans first, only 21 years after the cry for help had been sent out.;)

Well, I am not disagreeing that they would eventually have a go at those Sicilian Normans, only that they would go after Apulia before Sicily, if only for strategic reasons (and the fact that there is high Greek population there, which should be of help in creating a beachhead). Sicily itself will be taken after Apulia is subdued.
 
In regards to a Byzantine blitzkrieg down the Levant and into Egypt, I agree with the others. The best case scenario I see in this department is the stabilization of the pre-Manzikert border, which ran close to the present day borders of Syria and northern Lebanon. While they were capable of conquering more (John Tzimtz made it as far as Caesara), they could not hold it. On the other had, they were not above indirect control, and controlled central Syria through the puppet emirate of Aleppo, a Byzantine "protectorate."
 
It would've taken much more than a mere battlefield victory to turn back the clock to justinian... If the empire at its greatest (militarily) under Nicephorus couldn't make past Aleppo, I don't see how the overstretched empire under lesser men could take Egypt, let alone Syria. At best, the victory at manzikert postpones the inevitable hour of reckoning. In any case, Mongols would probably disrupt any recovery in Anatolia; they spared Anatolia for the most part because it had no strong state within. A rejuvenated empire would be a prime target of Mongol slash and burn strategy. And let's not forget that the Mamluk 'victory' is important not because of the battle (in which the Mamluks had overwhelming numerical advantage) but because the Mongols deemed Egypt not worth the effort. Would the Mongols think of the Byzantines the same, even if the Byzantines got lucky like the Mamluks and bushwacked a Mongol detachment? Who knows?
 
err, Aleppo was taken by the empire, under John Tzimzes. He occupied it from 974 to 987, then placed a puppet ruler in charge. He made it all the way to Caesara, and had he lived a decade longer, he probably could have made it to Jerusalem. Whether or not they could have held on to all that land after his death is another question, of course.
 
Tzimiskes was a strong healthy man and surely he would have lived 1-2 decades more...
Unfortunately he was poisoned by Praefect Basileius because Tzimiskes wanted to strip him from his offices and banish him...
Tzimiskes was an excellent General and tactician... Dont forget that he was a student of the Great General and Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas and was appointed by him Domesticorum Scholae of the East (sic) and if he had lived he would certainly made it to Jerusalem by 980-985...
 

Keenir

Banned
Tzimiskes was a strong healthy man and surely he would have lived 1-2 decades more...

doesn't mean he'd do well.

(for one thing, politics - even back then - didn't care about strength)

Tzimiskes was an excellent General and tactician... Dont forget that he was a student of the Great General and Emperor Nicephorus II Phocas and was appointed by him Domesticorum Scholae of the East (sic) and if he had lived he would certainly made it to Jerusalem by 980-985...

just recall that even Hannibal Barca's career was not an unending series of victories....particularly not towards the end.
 
How about Basileius II? He was the best Emperor-Genera since Heraclius to rule Byzantine Empire.... Instead of butchering Bulgars he appoints a competent General to deal with them (lets say Vardas Skleros or Vardas Phokas) and we make him move towards Syria and Palestine to continue the campaing that his predecessor left unfinished... So he takes the nickname Basileius II "Mousoulmanoktonos" (muslim-killer) instead of Boulgaroktonos:D
 
The whole Seljuk empire (under Saladin frex) was a lot bigger than just the Rum-Seljuk empire.

Agreed. At the high point, the Seljuks controlled most of Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, Syria, and Persia.

Would you please tell me which Saladin are you talking about? I don't think you are talking about Yussuf bin Ayyub, the most famous Saladin I know. Which Saladin was he ? Or maybe I got the things all wrong about what you've meant...
 
err, Aleppo was taken by the empire, under John Tzimzes. He occupied it from 974 to 987, then placed a puppet ruler in charge. He made it all the way to Caesara, and had he lived a decade longer, he probably could have made it to Jerusalem. Whether or not they could have held on to all that land after his death is another question, of course.

John's campaign was a raid, not intended for conquest. He did have dreams of reconquering the Holy Land, but I don't think it was tenable long-term. The more realistic Basil II had hoped to take Tripoli in Lebanon, a formidable fortress, to anchor Byzantine territories in Cilicia and the Northern Syrian plain.
 
How about Basileius II? He was the best Emperor-Genera since Heraclius to rule Byzantine Empire.... Instead of butchering Bulgars he appoints a competent General to deal with them (lets say Vardas Skleros or Vardas Phokas) and we make him move towards Syria and Palestine to continue the campaing that his predecessor left unfinished... So he takes the nickname Basileius II "Mousoulmanoktonos" (muslim-killer) instead of Boulgaroktonos:D

John himself had no interest in this, and obviously wasn't the anti-Muslim fanatic you are because he had a greater respect for them than you do.

The Byzantines were hard-pressed on all sides in this period and needed to concentrate on real strategic concerns, not juvenile delusions of grandeur. In John's time Bulgaria was still a threat and needed to be dealt with and the Normans were pushing the empire out of Italy. These territories are much more important strategically and as long-term parts of the empire, and produced way more revenue, and wouldn't be full of people that could never be integrated into the Byzantine polity like the Mid East.

To waste time on barren places like Palestine would have been stupid, overextended the empire, and wasted precious resources.

No Byzantine emperor could ever appoint a general with enough of an army to simultaneously fight Bulgaria and the Muslims - first of all, the empire didn't have the resources to do this, and second, if it had, the general sent to fight the Bulgarians would just turn around and walk into Constantinople and seize the throne.
 
Agree partially Abdul... But what about the religious feeling? By havong Holy Lands under Muslim occupation was an insult to the christian world...
Nicephorus II and Basileius II were deeply religious... as ALexius Comnenus was maybe in an ATL religious fervor was the motive for a campaign against Muslims in Syria and Palestine...
 
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