No Magna Carta, possible consequences?

So, this is another question I've been brewing over for a possible scenario. What would happen if the Magna Carta never came into being? Either John wins the baron's war, or the events that led to it never happen, either way the Magna Carta never comes into being. What effects does this have on England, and the relationship between the King and the nobles? Does this prevent the development of Parliament?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The Magna Carta was both less important and more important than history gives it credit for. There would be little change in the short term (i.e. a century or two), but in the long run the consequences would be massive, indeed. The Magna Carta was a symbolic force of incredible power in later years, fostering the traditions of English liberty and limited government. Without such a symbol from which to draw strength, we would no doubt see a very different development of the British political system. In turn, since British ideas of government influenced the rest of the world more than those of any other nation, we would see a very different world emerge.

It's ironic that the barons who stood in the meadow at Runnymede were focused only on their own prerogatives and could not have imagined that they were doing something that would come to be seen as the birth of liberty.
 
The document was in the moment no more than a recognition by John of the perogratives the Barons thought their traditional rights. Mot of the items were grounded in tradition & the Barons or aristocracy are not going to give up on their privileged, or economic advantages just because the King won a war that year & some of them were beheaded. Eventually a aging John or a weaker successor loses another round of the argument. What the Magna Carta also symbolized was the growing trend in writing down these agreements & distribution of copies. Attention to a written text of law as it were. I'd think there would be some other historic document or two during the next few decades.
 
Interesting, what happens though if the barons later on down the line guck up massively as it were? With no Magna Carta there'd be little stopping retribution.
 
Interesting, what happens though if the barons later on down the line guck up massively as it were? With no Magna Carta there'd be little stopping retribution.

Well, without defined legal grounds on which to peacefully handle the conflict between the King and the lesser nobility, you probably end up with more bouts of civil violence within England itself as disagreements between the two sides can't appeal to the lawyerly tradition and explicit prerogatives, meaning the sword becomes the only real viable option. Eventually, you may very well end up with a bigger, more bloody English Civil War before an eventual peace treaty that defines the exact structure of British political power.
 
Well, without defined legal grounds on which to peacefully handle the conflict between the King and the lesser nobility, you probably end up with more bouts of civil violence within England itself as disagreements between the two sides can't appeal to the lawyerly tradition and explicit prerogatives, meaning the sword becomes the only real viable option. Eventually, you may very well end up with a bigger, more bloody English Civil War before an eventual peace treaty that defines the exact structure of British political power.
Hmm this is true, an interesting timeline to ponder I think
 
The Parliament serves a useful feature in that there are peaceful ways to handle conflicts between the crown and nobility.

Also, it severs the useful purpose of keeping some advisors near the king besides his household. Now, sometimes these "advisors" end up having all the power (Henry III...), but when they don't it must be remembered ideas are cheap... one can discard the bad ones and implement the good ones. This doesn't guarantee he'll chose the right ideas, but it at least gives him something to think about besides echochambers of yes men.

Also remember that some kings willingly delegated power just so they didn't have to think as much anymore!

I must say if we expect a mixture of good, average, and bad kings, having a parliament exist is good to keep the dynasty in power. Unless we get rid of bad kings, this institution actually helps the ruling dynasty.

Having it be too strong isn't so great for keeping the ruling dynasty in power (The House of Windsor is really cool, but honestly they aren't a powerful dynasty. The only time I can imagine them doing anything contrary to a PM's word is to put a break on changes if Britain elects genocidal MPs into a majority some decade down the line)
 
The Parliament serves a useful feature in that there are peaceful ways to handle conflicts between the crown and nobility.

Also, it severs the useful purpose of keeping some advisors near the king besides his household. Now, sometimes these "advisors" end up having all the power (Henry III...), but when they don't it must be remembered ideas are cheap... one can discard the bad ones and implement the good ones. This doesn't guarantee he'll chose the right ideas, but it at least gives him something to think about besides echochambers of yes men.

Also remember that some kings willingly delegated power just so they didn't have to think as much anymore!

I must say if we expect a mixture of good, average, and bad kings, having a parliament exist is good to keep the dynasty in power. Unless we get rid of bad kings, this institution actually helps the ruling dynasty.

Having it be too strong isn't so great for keeping the ruling dynasty in power (The House of Windsor is really cool, but honestly they aren't a powerful dynasty. The only time I can imagine them doing anything contrary to a PM's word is to put a break on changes if Britain elects genocidal MPs into a majority some decade down the line)
You’re not wrong there about the Windsor’s though they might even allow that if the idiot ,asses decided to let it stand, which they might.

I think if parliament is founded by the king that would make sense, though given the people an inch and they’ll demand a mile
 
though they might even allow that if the idiot ,asses decided to let it stand, which they might.

No, I think that would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Liz (if she's around because not only do I doubt they British will elect the assholes, but if it does happen I'd say 2050 at the earliest... never say impossible in politics decades down the line, only very unlikely) or (then King) Charles Prince of Wales, or(then King or Queen) George or Charlotte or Cambridge would refuse royal ascent of anything related to mass murder. they might also grab everything they can and flee to Canada and leave a viceroy in charge if it gets to this point.

If Britain does anything else stupid but less than mass murder (such as a self inflicted recession, a probable permanent loss in 1% GDP growth for the next 30 years, and becoming a joke of Europe) they can't do anything about it. It would just be unthinkable for them to refuse royal ascent for a stupid-but-not-evil action.

We shouldn't talk too much about this since it's contemporary politics, just safe to say the House of Windsor isn't powerful and leave it at that
 
No, I think that would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Liz (if she's around because not only do I doubt they British will elect the assholes, but if it does happen I'd say 2050 at the earliest... never say impossible in politics decades down the line, only very unlikely) or (then King) Charles Prince of Wales, or(then King or Queen) George or Charlotte or Cambridge would refuse royal ascent of anything related to mass murder. they might also grab everything they can and flee to Canada and leave a viceroy in charge if it gets to this point.

If Britain does anything else stupid but less than mass murder (such as a self inflicted recession, a probable permanent loss in 1% GDP growth for the next 30 years, and becoming a joke of Europe) they can't do anything about it. It would just be unthinkable for them to refuse royal ascent for a stupid-but-not-evil action.
Indeed, though of course thy can caution, and advise. I do hope they’ve told may and her idiots that they need a plan if we’re leaving the eu.
 
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