No Korsun Pocket

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

Deleted member 1487

Having started a book on the subject, it seemed like an interesting what if given that the pocket helped collapse the front in Ukraine and opened Romania up to invasion in Spring.

What if instead of obeying Hitler unconditionally Manstein disobeyed orders and pulled the German 8th army out of bulge it was in around Korsun/Cherkassy, shortening the line and ensuring that the army couldn't be easily pocketed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Korsun–Cherkassy_Pocket
800px-OEF-map-6.jpg


How much does it slow the Soviet advance in the region in 1944, what do they do instead, and does Manstein get sacked over authorizing the retreat?
 
Interesting, Hitler will still want to hold Nikopol mines and the Crimea which are awkwardly exposed still. Although one could argue that Nikopol could be held longer and holding on to Odessa has to help in the Crimea.

Otherwise a slow fall back, and making a serious effort to holding on the Bug seems like a really good idea for the Germans at this point. Hitlers reluctance to give ground in this situation seems weird even for him since he seemed all in in defeating the upcoming western invasion, avoiding disaster here would seem to better fit that plan.
 

Deleted member 1487

Interesting, Hitler will still want to hold Nikopol mines and the Crimea which are awkwardly exposed still. Although one could argue that Nikopol could be held longer and holding on to Odessa has to help in the Crimea.

Otherwise a slow fall back, and making a serious effort to holding on the Bug seems like a really good idea for the Germans at this point. Hitlers reluctance to give ground in this situation seems weird even for him since he seemed all in in defeating the upcoming western invasion, avoiding disaster here would seem to better fit that plan.
Certainly possible. Seems like the big impact, beyond losing a bunch of veterans, was the heavy loss in equipment and the survivors, the majority of those in the pocket, were withdrawn from the front and sent on extended leave at home to recover, so were effectively out of the fight in a crucial period, while equipment losses were hard to replace, especially as it was the equipment of an entire army.
 

trurle

Banned
Interesting, Hitler will still want to hold Nikopol mines and the Crimea which are awkwardly exposed still. Although one could argue that Nikopol could be held longer and holding on to Odessa has to help in the Crimea.

Otherwise a slow fall back, and making a serious effort to holding on the Bug seems like a really good idea for the Germans at this point. Hitlers reluctance to give ground in this situation seems weird even for him since he seemed all in in defeating the upcoming western invasion, avoiding disaster here would seem to better fit that plan.
The Germany was critically short of manganese in 1944. Nikopol mine have produced about 40% of manganese for German war effort, and without it the armor plate quality has greatly suffered (German engineers resorted to increased carbon alloying to keep same hardness, but it resulted in crack-prone alloy).
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1487

The Germany was critically short of manganese in 1944. Nikopol mine have produced about 40% of manganese for German war effort, and without it the armor plate quality has greatly suffered (German engineers resorted to increased carbon alloying to keep same hardness, but it resulted in crack-prone alloy).
That wouldn't be impacted by a retreat out of the Korsun bulge though.
 
If Germany can free up a reserve of several divisions because of this, ultimately you have to expend them in the Bocage in Normandy, its defendable and holding France for as long as possible is too important. Its hard to beat the Allies on the beach, you just have to pen them in once they land.

Once the Dnieper is bounced, the Bug is a pretty good line, its short, shorter than the Dnieper, its still wide. Good grain production between the Dniester and the Bug. Nickopol is gone, but once the Dnieper was bounced, it was on the east side, it was going to be hard to hold forever, you could probably hold it couple weeks longer than OTL anyway though with a slow withdraw, trying to keep reserves for the west.
 

Deleted member 1487

If Germany can free up a reserve of several divisions because of this, ultimately you have to expend them in the Bocage in Normandy, its defendable and holding France for as long as possible is too important. Its hard to beat the Allies on the beach, you just have to pen them in once they land.

Once the Dnieper is bounced, the Bug is a pretty good line, its short, shorter than the Dnieper, its still wide. Good grain production between the Dniester and the Bug. Nickopol is gone, but once the Dnieper was bounced, it was on the east side, it was going to be hard to hold forever, you could probably hold it couple weeks longer than OTL anyway though with a slow withdraw, trying to keep reserves for the west.
I doubt they could afford to strip out the Eastern Front at that point. Besides this went down in January-February 1944 and the Soviets will be attacking, so likely any savings get burned up over the course of Winter-Spring, but the question is what happens as a result of making it harder for the Soviets to inflict casualties during the period? That and Manstein choosing to defy Hitler in his defensive strategy, which is going to have consequences. I just can't see Manstein disobeying Hitler so totally that he'd fall back on the Bug and abandon Nikopol. Still there were tactical-operational positioning that could maximize the manpower per kilometer of front such as pulling out of expose salients that couldn't be manned effectively anyway. As Zetterling (author of the book on Korsun I'm reading) points out, the timed withdrawal of forces (they knew what was coming and nearly exactly where despite Soviet claims about total deception success, a theme I'm seeing a fair bit when authors bother to consult the archival info when it exists) would not only have disjointed Soviet offensive plans, but either forced them into a hasty offensive before they were ready or abandon it altogether to move forces into new positions to try and exploit weak positions, a time consuming process.
 
Top