No Jim Crow

[kernals12]

What if the redeemers had been stopped and freedmen weren't denied the right to vote? How would politics be different? I'd assume blacks would be a very left wing group as IOTL. I think that with a south that worked to support rather than block progressive reforms, we'd be more like Canada or Britain. Also, would the Democratic party survive without the solid south?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

What if the redeemers had been stopped and freedmen weren't denied the right to vote? How would politics be different? I'd assume blacks would be a very left wing group as IOTL. I think that with a south that worked to support rather than block progressive reforms, we'd be more like Canada or Britain. Also, would the Democratic party survive without the solid south?

Um... why would blacks be more left-wing in a timeline where they aren't subjects to state governments/cultures which actively sought to stifle their economic improvement? If anything, blacks as a group would be LESS left-wing, since they would on average be wealthier due to less generational poverty and lack as much of a need for identity politics. Also, if blacks as a whole voted as often as whites during the later decades of the 1800's and throughout the 1900's, you can bet the Southern Democrats are going to shift policies to try to snag up some of their votes.

Though, I imagine in this timeline you might see some "White Flight" of poor whites from the south to the Mid-west, Prairie States, and North, creating a more sharp racial regional divide (as there'd also be less motivation for blacks to migrate north).

 

[kernals12]

Um... why would blacks be more left-wing in a timeline where they aren't subjects to state governments/cultures which actively sought to stifle their economic improvement? If anything, blacks as a group would be LESS left-wing, since they would on average be wealthier due to less generational poverty and lack as much of a need for identity politics. Also, if blacks as a whole voted as often as whites during the later decades of the 1800's and throughout the 1900's, you can bet the Southern Democrats are going to shift policies to try to snag up some of their votes.

Though, I imagine in this timeline you might see some "White Flight" of poor whites from the south to the Mid-west, Prairie States, and North, creating a more sharp racial regional divide (as there'd also be less motivation for blacks to migrate north).

I never said they would be more left wing, I said they would be a very left wing group. And the reason I believe they would have is that they would possess a strong belief in social justice. And remember, IOTL Democrats have gotten at least 85% of the black vote in every election since 1964, that means a lot of wealthier blacks are also liberals.

 

[kernals12]

Though, I imagine in this timeline you might see some "White Flight" of poor whites from the south to the Mid-west, Prairie States, and North, creating a more sharp racial regional divide (as there'd also be less motivation for blacks to migrate north).

I was sort of imagining that confederates would leave the country similar to the Nazis that fled to Argentina
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[Clint Beastwood]

I never said they would be more left wing, I said they would be a very left wing group. And the reason I believe they would have is that they would possess a strong belief in social justice. And remember, IOTL Democrats have gotten at least 85% of the black vote in every election since 1964, that means a lot of wealthier blacks are also liberals.

This is almost a CENTURY from the Civil Rights act. Before then Blacks almost entirely voted republican out of the fact that they weren't the ones pushing Jim Crow on them and the Southern Democrats hated their guts. And the gravitas towards the left wing movement is out of a feeling of helplessness and anger about the rampant poverty as a result of Jim Crow. In the absence of Jim Crow, we would see such movements devoid of African Americans as they would have no reason to join the Left and would be a strong Republican Block of voters.

 

[Clint Beastwood]

I was sort of imagining that confederates would leave the country similar to the Nazis that fled Argentina
​

they did try to flee from other places like the Confederados from Brazil but they were less than 1% of the Southern Population and many simply returned to the South after the war.

 

[kernals12]

This is almost a CENTURY from the Civil Rights act. Before then Blacks almost entirely voted republican out of the fact that they weren't the ones pushing Jim Crow on them and the Southern Democrats hated their guts. And the gravitas towards the left wing movement is out of a feeling of helplessness and anger about the rampant poverty as a result of Jim Crow. In the absence of Jim Crow, we would see such movements devoid of African Americans as they would have no reason to join the Left and would be a strong Republican Block of voters.

At this point, Republican does not necessarily mean conservative. There were Republicans in congress IOTL in the 1860s who wanted to confiscate the land of planters and give it to freedmen, which is borderline Communism (Although I think it would've been a good idea.)

 

[kernals12]

they did try to flee from other places like the Confederados from Brazil but they were less than 1% of the Southern Population and many simply returned to the South after the war.

ITTL I don't think they would've wanted to return to a south where the people who used to be their slaves are the ones in control.

 

[Clint Beastwood]

At this point, Republican does not necessarily mean conservative. There were Republicans in congress IOTL in the 1860s who wanted to confiscate the land of planters and give it to freedmen.

yes but they were conservative in other ways too. They were THE party of the North during the Civil War and the aftermath and many Know-Nothings who were strongly Abolitionists became Radical Republicans. Just because they were "progressive" from an 19th century standpoint doesn't mean that they weren't conservative in other ways too.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

I never said they would be more left wing, I said they would be a very left wing group.

Same difference really.

And the reason I believe they would have is that they would possess a strong belief in social justice.

But why though? If your group is not being actively oppressed, then you have no more reason to demand justice than any other group.

And remember, IOTL Democrats have gotten at least 85% of the black vote in every election since 1964, that means a lot of wealthier blacks are also liberals.

Actually, in many respects, the Black community is surprising conservative.

 

[kernals12]

But why though? If your group is not being actively oppressed, then you have no more reason to demand justice than any other group.

Even so, would you not agree that these blacks will be far to the left of the Whites who dominated the South IOTL?

 

[ennobee]

I never said they would be more left wing, I said they would be a very left wing group. And the reason I believe they would have is that they would possess a strong belief in social justice. And remember, IOTL Democrats have gotten at least 85% of the black vote in every election since 1964, that means a lot of wealthier blacks are also liberals.

Of course, in the 150 years since the civil war, the policies of both US parties have shifted back and forth on all social and economic issues. So without Jim Crow it is easy to imagine a political landscape where the Republicans were the most socially progressive party just like they were in 1860.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Even so, would you not agree that these blacks will be far to the left of the Whites who dominated the South IOTL?

It depends on the individual issue.

Just because you support not getting lynched when you try to vote doesn't mean you'll support other Leftist causes.

 

[ennobee]

Even so, would you not agree that these blacks will be far to the left of the Whites who dominated the South IOTL?

The South may be but what about the industrial hotbeds of the North: Chicago or Harlem... Would there even be such a massive trek north if you just had the economic incentive of plenty high-paying jobs without the incentive of getting away from institutionalized harassment.

 

[kernals12]

The South may be but what about the industrial hotbeds of the North: Chicago or Harlem... Would there even be such a massive trek north if you just had the economic incentive of plenty high-paying jobs without the incentive of getting away from institutionalized harassment.

Probably not as massive but it would still be there, the South was still the poorest part of the country and the Boll Weevil epidemic destroyed the cotton industry. I think you would've had many Southern whites leaving, as they didn't want to have blacks as their governors, senators, congressmen etc.

 

[Danishbro]

Black Americans would certainly be a Republican voting block. ITTL Republican's not only granted freedom, but defended it. I do think the Democrat party would still exist, but without it's conservative southern side. It's possible the Democrat and Republican parties might radicalize earlier in this timeline, or its possible that America might be a left-leaning nation, with a labour-based Democrat party, and a Republican party that prides itself on lifting up Black Americans out of not only literal slavery, but economic slavery as well.

 

[kernals12]

Black Americans would certainly be a Republican voting block. ITTL Republican's not only granted freedom, but defended it. I do think the Democrat party would still exist, but without it's conservative southern side. It's possible the Democrat and Republican parties might radicalize earlier in this timeline, or its possible that America might be a left-leaning nation, with a labour-based Democrat party, and a Republican party that prides itself on lifting up Black Americans out of not only literal slavery, but economic slavery as well.

FDR was able to win over black voters IOTL without explicit appeals, presumably because blacks were disproportionately badly hit by the Great Depression. I think that William Jennings Bryan would be relatively popular amongst black farmers with his Free silver platform (I imagine comparing the northeast money interests to the antebellum plantation owners would be a powerful message).

 

[Danishbro]

FDR was able to win over black voters IOTL without explicit appeals, presumably because blacks were disproportionately badly hit by the Great Depression. I think that William Jennings Bryan would be relatively popular amongst black farmers with his Free silver platform (I imagine comparing the northeast money interests to the antebellum plantation owners would be a powerful message).

True, but IOTL what had Republicans done for black voters since Lincoln? ITTL they continuously defended them against the 'good-old-days' folk, and presumable continued valuable policies like the Freedman's Bureau.

 

[kernals12]

True, but IOTL what had Republicans done for black voters since Lincoln? ITTL they continuously defended them against the 'good-old-days' folk, and presumable continued valuable policies like the Freedman's Bureau.

IOTL Democrats created Social Security and Medicare and fought tooth and nail to protect them, yet the elderly lean Republican. Assume as a rule that American political coalitions will reach an equilibrium of 50% and Jews, Catholics, and a few Western farmers (which was the Democratic coalition outside the South essentially until the 1960s) is not 50% of late 19th century America.

 

[Danishbro]

IOTL Democrats created Social Security and Medicare and fought tooth and nail to protect them, yet the elderly lean Republican.

I think this is because elderly people are more conservative; Black American's are also fairly conservative, couple this with favorable policies...

Assume as a rule that American political coalitions will reach an equilibrium of 50% and Jews, Catholics, and a few Western farmers (which was the Democratic coalition outside the South essentially until the 1960s) is not 50% of late 19th century America.

Right, this is why I think they become a workers-rights labour party earlier in their history.

What are your thoughts on how political coalitions will look?