No Israel, only America

The Northern Great Plains are pretty sparsely populated, I could see a de facto Jewish state rising somewhere up there.
 
more like Jews should come and live in the USA till God leads them to the holy land, though some Zionist would want a Jewish state in the USA

Assuming that the zionist in this scenario concetrate their efforts within one of the more sparesly populated plains states (Wyoming or the Dakotas) they could probably have a jewish majority state within the US.
 
According to wikipedia, Jewish immigration to Palestine from 1939-1950 was about equivalent to modern day North Dakota's entire population. They could definitely take over at least two states in the Great Plains. This would make an interesting TL. And there's even somewhat of an incentive already in place. Britain had placed restrictions on immigration to Palestine in 1933, and most immigration after that had been illegal. Surely it would've been easier to migrate to America. Maybe have the immigration ban stick (including better security against such immigration), and voila, you could get a bunch of Jews migrating to America.
 
Assuming that the zionist in this scenario concetrate their efforts within one of the more sparesly populated plains states (Wyoming or the Dakotas) they could probably have a jewish majority state within the US.

I'd peg Wyoming or Montana the Dakotas, by the time of the first aliyah was a hub for Germans and Norwegians

so Wyoming in 1880 had 20,789 people, Montana had 39,159
the First Aliyah was 1881-1903 and brought 25,000 to 35,000 Jews in OTL
the Second Aliyah was 1904-1914 brought 40,000 Jews
Third Aliyah 1919-1923 35,00 Jews
Fourth Aliyah 1924-1928 80,000 Jews
Fifth Aliyah 1929-1939 265,000 Jews

Wyoming in 1940 OTL had 250,742 people in it, Montana had 559,456 people
before the founding of the State of Israel there were 455,000 Jews that came through Zionism
 
how do they get their in large numbers? The railroad is going through Denver, they would have to travel by stage or wagon. Without an organizing company or ethos I don't see this happening. You can't use Zionism because it is predicated on Aliyah so then what? Herzl says, G-d actually meant Montana in the USA, you know that funny Christian republic that just gave up slavery 30 years ago, I just don't see why they all go there.

I get what you are saying but we still have a pretty Wild West (forgive the pun). Sioux are still loose and the Shoshone and Cheyenne (No offense and justifications aside, but the Native treatment of white settlers wasn't all that different than a pogrom, IMHO) aren't confined to reservations so Wyoming and Montana are still pretty wild. Not to mention the boomtowns, why would any Jew want to leave New York? Plenty of jobs, food, and living quarters. Yes, Tenament life was miserable to say the least, but it would IMHO beat the hell outta getting scalped or what have you, not to mention they all just left the Shtetl so why go set up knew ones? Part of me thinks my ancestors left Poland so they could get off the farm (not to mention no Cossacks would be a bonus:D). I just want to know what you think the motivation would be.
 
how do they get their in large numbers? The railroad is going through Denver, they would have to travel by stage or wagon. Without an organizing company or ethos I don't see this happening. You can't use Zionism because it is predicated on Aliyah so then what? Herzl says, G-d actually meant Montana in the USA, you know that funny Christian republic that just gave up slavery 30 years ago, I just don't see why they all go there.

I get what you are saying but we still have a pretty Wild West (forgive the pun). Sioux are still loose and the Shoshone and Cheyenne (No offense and justifications aside, but the Native treatment of white settlers wasn't all that different than a pogrom, IMHO) aren't confined to reservations so Wyoming and Montana are still pretty wild. Not to mention the boomtowns, why would any Jew want to leave New York? Plenty of jobs, food, and living quarters. Yes, Tenament life was miserable to say the least, but it would IMHO beat the hell outta getting scalped or what have you, not to mention they all just left the Shtetl so why go set up knew ones? Part of me thinks my ancestors left Poland so they could get off the farm (not to mention no Cossacks would be a bonus:D). I just want to know what you think the motivation would be.

Herzl didn't believe in God :rolleyes: thats why he picked Israel, a good little Jew knows God banned the people from "massively immigrating to the Land of Israel" Herzl and his Zionist were secular in a big way.

any ways the jews in NYC were poor and didn't come to the US for political reasons the Zionists went out to the middle of global nowhere for a political reason, so they left the food and jobs of Europe why not go to the American West it'd be no harder

I think there'd be two groups of Jews in the US, the Zionists in the west and the East coast New York City anti-zionist Jews, it'd be America and Israel in one nation
 
I'd imagine that stricter immigration laws would be put into place, to stop the flood of Jewish immigrants. Citizens of the states where the Zionists settle would probably not take too kindly to the influx of people. Perhaps you'd see a rise of violent antisemitism, like what happened with Catholics IOTL.
 
Immigration would be much easier if you waited for the Great Northern Railway to be built, around the 1890s. You would still end up with some 450,000 Jews (your math was off the first time). If you wait until 1939, they would avoid a large bit of discrimination, would have an easier means to travel, there wouldn't be as much lawlessness, and there would be more motivation to get there. The illegal Jewish immigration to Palestine from 1939-1948 was 600,000* Jews, quite a bit more than your other scenario.

*According to wikipedia.
 
Immigration would be much easier if you waited for the Great Northern Railway to be built, around the 1890s. You would still end up with some 450,000 Jews (your math was off the first time). If you wait until 1939, they would avoid a large bit of discrimination, would have an easier means to travel, there wouldn't be as much lawlessness, and there would be more motivation to get there. The illegal Jewish immigration to Palestine from 1939-1948 was 600,000* Jews, quite a bit more than your other scenario.

*According to wikipedia.

well my idea was no (or very little) Jewish Immigration to Palestine, maybe the money and skills the Zionists bring to an underpopulated state(s) might cut down on the racism, the state is big and under populated, one of the Issues in the east was in NYC you'd run into the Jews or the Irish, out west thats unlikely, also the Jews will be starting large farms and towns rather than living in grubby Tenaments

any ways the I only went to 1939 was because I felt things would change too much by that point to get numbers, I don't think it would stop in 1939
 
What do you mean? The Jewish equivalent of Mormon Utah, or are they spread out throughout America?

at this point a Mormon Utah like thing they move west and Demographically take over a western state (or two) if you have a different idea go for it but Zionist Wyoming sounds deeply cool.
 
Stricter immigration was put in place by Woodrow Wilson and FDR refused to lift the limits even while the Holocaust was going on. The Jews pouring in to Montana or the Dakotas isn't going to fly.

The Mormons dominated Utah because they arrived in numbers before the US even owned Utah and thus had all the best land before anyone else could arrive and the survival of the Mormons wasn't always certain.
 
Herzl didn't believe in God :rolleyes: thats why he picked Israel, a good little Jew knows God banned the people from "massively immigrating to the Land of Israel" Herzl and his Zionist were secular in a big way.

No he didn't and neither did most of the Zionist Congress and that was not the crux of the argument. Plenty of other people did there were communities like Tsfat that had been around for centuries and attracted people to them. Not to mention the growing Orthodoxy (for lack of a better term, the modern day Hasidim), thanks to the religious revival led by the Ba'al Shem Tov's teachings several centuries earlier, of European Jews generally, if not the absorbed middle class specifically (Herzl, de Rothschild, etc). To say that some of people were motivated by religion is not that out of line. Considering the current political climate in Israel religion was and is a huge part of Israel's development. Either way what is the Drive to go to America? In this case why not Uganda?

any ways the jews in NYC were poor and didn't come to the US for political reasons the Zionists went out to the middle of global nowhere for a political reason, so they left the food and jobs of Europe why not go to the American West it'd be no harder

I don't think Protestant America is going to let them in. You are correct the life experience would be no harder but in the Middle of America how do they acquire the land? I don't see how Chester Arthur, Grover Cleveland or McKinley allows in a bunch of a Eastern European Jews not when their are plenty of "proper" immigrants (Irish, Germans mostly) to find space for. I guess they might sell the land to a land development company but I think all the good places are going to be taken by mining, ranching, and timber interests.

My Great Grandfather was involved in radical politics (family lore says he worked with Trotsky but who knows) in Russia and skipped town with his Wife and several of his children and came to America in the late 1890s one step ahead of the Ohkrana. For the rest of his life he went the other way when police walked down the street and voted Socialist.

I think there'd be two groups of Jews in the US, the Zionists in the west and the East coast New York City anti-zionist Jews, it'd be America and Israel in one nation

I don't think so. I think the motivations to come to America vs Israel are two different motivations. Zionist wanted to establish a Jewish homeland which eventually became religiously motivated. While American Jews came for the opportunity that being able to live in a city represented. You seem to forget that for years the Ashkenazim were banned from cities and forced to live in the Pale. Only Western Europe after Napoleon had these restrictions been lifted but there was still social stratification.


I would love to see this workout but I don't see how this gets organized and why the Zionists decide on America there are plenty of other global nowheres they could go. Why no Alberta, why not outer Mongolia? Why not Uganda? The list could go on I just want I just want a why better explanation than look lots of empty space lets put Jews there.
 
Without an Israeli state, would you even have anything like OTL Zionism? America already had a very substantial Jewish population. To not create Israel, you would need to change the course of the world war(s) and not have the Holocaust (or a very small one). Then there would be no motivation to flock to any particular nation.
 
Jewish immigration to the USA could be focused on Maine or New Hampshire. The populations of these states are small and it wouldn't take long for them to form a majority.

It would be easy for millions to sneak in these states if a toe hold were established there first. Ships come and go from the port of Portland and people could either sneak in through the docks. They could also sneak off life rafts before landing if the docks are being inspected. Finally, they can sneak into Canada and come there on foot.

Once in the state they could blend into the Jewish population already established there.
 
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