Philip
Donor
Yes - I meant nobody in Europe.
And it would have been transmitted to Europe with or without Islam.
Yes - I meant nobody in Europe.
And it would have been transmitted to Europe with or without Islam.
It developed in India at about the same time as Mohammad was on earth. It passed through Babylon and onto Europe. There was nothing Islamic about it.
It is clear that you have not read Photius's writings. Thank you for clarifying.
Yes, and I am sure that Islamic scholars never engaged in such discussions. Nonetheless, you comment is not relevant. My statement was offered to show the existence of the Byzantine Renaissance. Your comment in no way challenges that.
I haven't said otherwise. I have, however, stated that those contributions need not have come from Islam. Another culture could have taken Islam's place. Can you show otherwise?
And it would have been transmitted to Europe with or without Islam.
No it wouldn't have.
Knowledge from point a gets to point c.
Point b, really shouldn't get that much credit for it.
What if Islam never came along? What would the world be like?
Well, first of all; it would actually be pretty hard to predict what the world would be like without Islam, because any scenario without Islam has a lot of variables that are hard or even impossible to predict.
However, a few things are quite likely to happen in this scenario;
- No Dark Ages in Western Europe, but no Renaissance either.
OTL, Nestorian Christianity made it to India and China.
so who was it that said Islam knocked Christianity back?
Me. And I think without the dynamism of Islam to knock it back, Christianity would at least have been the primary religion in the Middle East, and probably Persia as well. It would no doubt have been bigger in India than in OTL, but probably not overwhelmingly so.
I don't see it being bigger in India - it would have to have a way to spread there, which in OTL was Europe, which was able to do so because of technological progress made possible by Islam.
Without Islam, it's possible that Arabia itself could go Christian, but that seems unlikely to me - most likely it would remain pagan, or develop some other form of monotheism, and the Arabians were the medium of transmission of ideas through their ubiquity in Indian Ocean trade.
If Arabia became Christian, it would be as a peripheral province of the Byzantine Empire and would lack the dynamism of being at the center of a new and energetic polity.
No it wouldn't have.
I don't see it being bigger in India - it would have to have a way to spread there, which in OTL was Europe, which was able to do so because of technological progress made possible by Islam.
OTL, it was well on its way. Peter-Aspebet, a Bedouin shiehk, and his family converted around AD 420. By 500, Christians were well established in Northern Yemen. Had Islam not arisen, it is likely that (Nestorian) Christianity would have continued to spread.Without Islam, it's possible that Arabia itself could go Christian, but that seems unlikely to me
Not necessarily. These Christians were Nestorian. Becoming part of the Sassanid Empire is more likely.If Arabia became Christian, it would be as a peripheral province of the Byzantine Empire
This has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with the empire created by Muslims. It is certainly possible that some other culture could build a similar empire.
At least you worked Islam in here. However, pilgrimage is not unique to Islam. Christians had been making pilgrimages to Jerusalem since at least the Fourth Century, and such pilgrimages were highly encouraged (read St Jerome). The also regularly traveled to Constantinople and Rome. Countless other sites were also visited. I am fairly certain Hindus and Buddhists also make pilgrimages. Further, we need not have the pilgrimage be religious in nature.
Of course, just because we are assuming there is no Islam, we do not need to assume that these merchants are of different religions. It is possible that another religion could spread across these lands. Even still, merchants do not need to be of the same religion to do business.
1) The Nestorian Schism never occurs. Chalcedonian Christianity stretches from Spain to China (even if not as the dominate religion). The faithful travel to Jerusalem as part of a pilgrimage. Bishops from all of Christidom occasionally (say, once every 100 years or so) for Ecumenical Councils. We get the same cultural exchange as OTL, but perhaps a century or two sooner.
. Functionaries from all over the empire travel to Ctesiphon. Diplomats and merchants come from even further. Again, we achieve the same cultural exchange.
It should not be hard to come up with others.
Who? The Byzantines? The Sassanids?
They didn't OTL.
Yes, if it became safe to travel. They were already coming from the entire Roman Empire. If relationships with other lands were politically improved, they would come from elsewhere as well.But who came across wide areas of Eurasia, or were likely to do so?
Many things could change. Either one of these empires could be victorious. A third empire could displace both. Even a polytheistic Arabic empire.Do we? The volume of trade in the Indian Ocean during the Islamic era is far greater than that of the era of Byzantine/Sassanid rivaly. What changes?
Um, any world in which Islam does not develop is ATL. What exactly am I supposed to compare it to? The OP did not specify why Islam did not come about, just that it didn't. Both of my scenarios meet that requirement and allow for the cultural exchange needed for the development of Europe. If you want, I'll think of one that begins in 623.I think this comes close; but you're comparing another ATL to OTL, not one where the world develops without Islam because Mohammed chokes on a date in 623 or something.
Correct, because of the presence of the Islamic Empire. However, this thread supposes that there is no Islam. Are suggesting that no one would fill the vacuum left?
Yes, if it became safe to travel. They were already coming from the entire Roman Empire. If relationships with other lands were politically improved, they would come from elsewhere as well.
Many things could change. Either one of these empires could be victorious. A third empire could displace both. Even a polytheistic Arabic empire.
Um, any world in which Islam does not develop is ATL. What exactly am I supposed to compare it to? The OP did not specify why Islam did not come about, just that it didn't. Both of my scenarios meet that requirement and allow for the cultural exchange needed for the development of Europe.
So, it is your position that without Islam, zero would never have made it to Europe?
Christianity was in India before Islam existed. China too.
OTL, it was well on its way. Peter-Aspebet, a Bedouin shiehk, and his family converted around AD 420. By 500, Christians were well established in Northern Yemen. Had Islam not arisen, it is likely that (Nestorian) Christianity would have continued to spread.
Not necessarily. These Christians were Nestorian. Becoming part of the Sassanid Empire is more likely.
In OTL, Christianity already was in India when Islam emerged.
The Christians of Kerala adhered the Church of the East, and there were small communities of Christians in northern India as well. I'm not saying that, without Islam, these communities would automatically lead to a significant Christian minority in large parts of India, but it is nonetheless not unlikely that there would have been at least a number of surviving Christian communities in India.
The presence of Christianity in the area was the result of the tradition of the Church of the East to send out wandering monks and preachers.
The Church of the East had a stable presence in Central Asia (there was a number of Nestorian archbishoprics in Central Asia, including one in Merv that existed since the 5th century), and the Nestorian preachers simply followed the trade routes, and a number of those trade routes led to India.
And there was also contact between the Christian communities on the coasts the Persian Gulf with Christian communities in other places, like Kerala and the cities of southern Arabia.
And allthough it will take more than wandering preachers to make Christianity a majority religion anywhere in Asia, these wandering preachers have managed to establish quite a few stable Christian communities this way.
There is also a good reason to assume that the Church of the East would do a lot better without Islam; without Islam, Timur Lenk would be butterflied away, and it was Timur Lenk's devastating invasion of the Middle East that effectively destroyed the central hierarchy of the Church of the East.
And the Church of the East, which consisted mainly of a large number of relatively small Christian communities that were spread across large parts of Asia, was effectively on the verge of overstretch at this point, which is why the destruction of the Church's leadership basically led to the collapse of the Church's hierarchy, which led to the collapse of the Church of the East itself soon after.
It's indeed quite likely that several different religions and sects would develop in Arabia.
By the way, didn't the Byzantines exile heretics and their followers to Mesopotamia and the Hijaz?
I strongly doubt wether a Christian Arabia would automatically have fallen under Byzantine influence, since the two most popular branches of Christianity in Arabia were the Church of the East and the Syriac Orthodox Church.
The Syriac Orthodox Church was doing missionairy work in the Hijaz, and there were established Nestorian communities along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. The island of Bahrain alone had two bishoprics, which indicates the presence of a sizable and well-established Christian community there, and I also recall that the remnants of several churches and monasteries have been found along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf in the past few decades.
Without Islam, it is quite propable that Syriac Orthodox influence would have become stronger in the Hijaz, and the Church of the East would have become even stronger in the area of the Persian Gulf.
There were also communities of Christians in the cities of southern Arabia, but those were fairly small. The most likely way in which southern Arabia is Christianized, is through a second Ethiopian conquest.
Central Arabia will most propably remain pagan long after the coastal areas have been Christianized.