No Islam

And it would have been transmitted to Europe with or without Islam.

Theoretically one could say that most civilisations need not have been. Their achievements would have come about someway, somehow, somewhere else. This likelihood increases the closer one comes to the present day.
 
It seems like you're more interested in being contentious and incredibly condescending than actually discussing - and seem to have a problem giving Islam it's due for what it has contributed to our civilization.

And what original thought or creativity are you attributing to Photius? All he really did was write crib notes. Hardly a "Renaissance" - and I wasn't aware the Byzantines really needed to rediscover anything - they never lost it, yet utterly failed to build upon it.

And since Islam DID transmit math and science to Europe, it's up to you to demonstrate why some other empire could just as well have done it - since no others did.

The absorbtion, synthesis, and development of ideas was very much due to the free intellectual climate fostered by early Islam, probably largely due to it's lack of an ecclesiastic hierarchy determine to stamp out all thought that didn't conform to arcane dogma.

It developed in India at about the same time as Mohammad was on earth. It passed through Babylon and onto Europe. There was nothing Islamic about it.



It is clear that you have not read Photius's writings. Thank you for clarifying.



Yes, and I am sure that Islamic scholars never engaged in such discussions. Nonetheless, you comment is not relevant. My statement was offered to show the existence of the Byzantine Renaissance. Your comment in no way challenges that.




I haven't said otherwise. I have, however, stated that those contributions need not have come from Islam. Another culture could have taken Islam's place. Can you show otherwise?
 
Knowledge from point a gets to point c.
Point b, really shouldn't get that much credit for it.

Sigh. It's not so much just picking up an idea and dropping it somewhere. It's the development and use of the idea. The Chinese came up with gunpower, but used it for entertainment - Europeans developed it into weaponry. Nobody ever comes up with an idea in a vacuum - it's the interplay of thought, its transmission, and the creation of an intellectually open environment that allow ideas to germinate, spread, interact, and develop.

Early Islam was such an environment; nothing in contemporary Europe, East or West, was. While European clerics were debating whether or not a number to represent zero was heresy, the Arabs were developing modern Algebra.

What are the alternatives to Islam to do this? I don't see any. Not pre-Islamic Persia; not the Byzantines. Not Ethiopia. There was one polity located in the right place at the right time, with the right expanse of territory with the right ethical system.

Perpetual progress is not inevitable. The entire history of humanity prior to the last few centuries ought to be ample demonstation of that.
 
What if Islam never came along? What would the world be like?

Well, first of all; it would actually be pretty hard to predict what the world would be like without Islam, because any scenario without Islam has a lot of variables that are hard or even impossible to predict.

However, a few things are quite likely to happen in this scenario;

First of all, there would be no Dark Ages in Western Europe, but there would not be a Renaissance either.

The two main factors that led to the Dark Ages in Western Europe are the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the resulting political instability in Western Europe (the barbarian invasions, the destruction of the established and more or less Romanized barbarian kingdoms by Justinian I), the initial Muslim invasion (which conquered Roman Africa and Spain) and Saracen piracy (which not only includes ordinary piracy, but also a good number of what can only be described as militairy operations with the purpose of plunder instead of conquest).

Prior to the Muslim invasion, Western European civilisation was still pretty much centered around the (Western) Mediterranean, and it's sphere of influence included parts of North Africa. Consequently, there was relatively much cultural interaction and exchange between the Latin West and the Greek East.

And when the Muslims invaded in OTL, they basically occupied almost every civilized part of Western Europe save for mainland Italy (the short-lived Saracen colonies in Calabria and Apulia aside). What was left of Christian Western Europe were the less developed nations in the north, and Italy, which was in decline at this point.

So without the Muslim conquest and Saracen piracy, Christian Western Europe would have retained its main centres of population, culture and civilisation, would have remained centered around the Western Mediterranean, its economy would not have been hurt by Saracen piracy, and it would have more contact with other civilisations.

Western Europe would still be in a decline for a while, but it would recover as soon as stable nations would have been established in the area.

And its also very likely that Christianity, along with European influences, will spread in the Berber kingdoms of Northwest Africa. And that could very well lead to direct or indirect contact between Western Europe and the civilisations and kingdoms of Sub-Saharan West Africa.


However, without Islam, the factors that set off the Renaissance in OTL would not have existed (no Islamic sciences and philosophy to boost Western European sciences, no Dark Ages in Western Europe), so the development of civilisation in Medieval Europe would be far more gradual than it was in OTL.

And wether scientific developments and the development of civilisation in general would be faster, slower or roughly similar to OTL is anybody's guess. IMHO there are far too many unpredictable variables in this scenario to make any real predictions about that.


..
As for the Middle East and the Byzantine Empire: provided that the Sassanids do not come back strong, there will be a bit of a political vacuum in the Middle East. Because of this, it is likely that there will be some effectively independant kingdoms and principalities between the Byzantine and Persian empires.

There will almost certainly be at least one Armenian kingdom, and if the Sassanid Empire collapses, it is quite possible that other states will emerge as well, perhaps domains carved out by Persian generals or princes, or Arab or Aramaic warlords.

We could see a "warring states"-period in the Middle East, which would be quite interesting.

And these developments will affect Byzantium as well; many Armenian aristocrats fled to the Byzantine Empire after the Caliphate subjugated Armenia in OTL, and there were in fact several Byzantine emperors of Armenian origin. Those emperors would certainly be butterflied away in this scenario, and that will deeply affect the Byzantine Empire.

What would happen in the non-Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) parts of the Byzantine Empire after the Byzantine-Persian war is rather hard to say. There are a lot of possebilities for succesful rebellions et al during this period, and it would take years, if not decades, for the Byzantines to properly reassert their authority over the recently regained territories.

Growing Nubian influence in Egypt is a possebility, allthough this might be a bit trickier and more complicated than I used think; the Nubian kingdoms Alwah and Nobotia followed the miaphysite Coptic Church, but a few months ago, I found out that the Church of the Nubian kingdom of Makuria followed the Chalcedonian dogma, and that the miaphysite factions only dominated there after the Byzantine Emperor stopped appointing Melkite patriarchs of Alexandria due to the Muslim conquest of Egypt.

And as long as the Chalcedonian Church of Makuria remains in direct contact with the other Chalcedonian Churches through the Melkite Patriarch of Alexandria, it is rather unlikely that the Makurians would ever switch to the miaphysite Coptic Church.

Nonetheless, if a succesful Coptic rebellion would make Egypt independant and bring it under Coptic rule, then it is safe to say that there will be no more Melkite patriarchs of Alexandria, so it is still possible for Makuria to become miaphysite in this scenario.

But the Byzantines would propably hold on to Syria and Palestine, as those areas were easier to reach from the Byzantine core territories and had a smaller population than Egypt.

And without a Muslim invasion to be worried about, the Byzantines would propably be able to handle the second great Donatist revolt that was raging in Byzantine Africa during the 7th century, so they would propably hold on to Africa as well.


The Turkish migrations into the Middle East would most propably still happen, and depending on the developments within the Byzantine Empire, a Turkish invasion of Anatolia is still possible (maybe not very likely, but still possible).

However, it is very likely that these Anatolian Turks would be converted to Orthodox Christianity and (partially) assimilated relatively soon (pretty much like the Slavs on the Balkan), and the best case scenario for such Orthodox Anatolian Turks would be that they are unified into a single, lasting empire by one of those Turkish tribes. I.e. a Bulgaria-analogue in Anatolia.

But things could get interesting if those Turkish invaders (or at least their ruling clans) would have converted to the Church of the East (aka. Nestorianism), one of the Miaphysite Churches (Armenian or Syriac Orthodox), or perhaps even to a surviving or new Gnostic religion (there were a few strong Gnostic sects in early Medieval Armenia, and Manicheism was still strong during the early Medieval ages).

However, even if, say, a Nestorian Turkish horde would conquer Anatolia, then there's a good chance that this Turkish empire will become a lot like early Visigothic Spain or Ostrogothic Italy; a relatively small elite of Nestorian Turks who rule over a large Greek and Orthodox population, with a fairly high propability of the elite becoming Orthodox.



...
And as for the most controversial issue; the development of sciences without Islam:

Advanced sciences would definitely exist in the Middle East, even without Islam, as there was already a long tradition of learning and even translating ancient works of science and philosophy in other languages. The universities of the Abbasid Caliphate were modeled on the universities of the Sassanid Empire, and the invaluable contributions of non-Muslim (and in many cases Christian) scientists and translators to 'Islamic' sciences are often overlooked.

However, for those sciences to develop on a similar scale as they did in the OTL Abbasid Caliphate and contemporary Muslim states, you'll need a fairly large and powerful empire that actively supports the development of these sciences.

The most likely candidate for such an empire would be a resurgent Persian (but not neccesarily Sassanid) Empire, allthough there are also more exotic options, like a non-Islamic Arab empire (something akin to the Ghassanids or Lakhmids, but then on a bigger scale) or even an Aramaic empire.

But it is nonetheless quite likely that there will be more significant "scientific traditions" in a world without Islam, even though most of those scientific traditions would not be as great as the OTL Islamic scientific tradition.

It seems rather likely that the Western European (i.e. Latin) scientific tradition would interact more with the Greek (i.e. Byzantine) scientific tradition and quite possibly the Aramaic scientific tradition(s) (pilgrimage to Jerusalem could very well have brought Christians from Western Europe in contact with the scientific traditions of the Middle East, and I recall that a Syrian became the Pope of Rome in the 8th century in OTL).

However, it would most propably take a lot longer for eastern (Middle Eastern and beyond) scientific influences and discoveries to penetrate into Western Europe, as these eastern influences cannot be introduced directly into Europe through Islamic sciences here.

..
It's just an interesting sidenote, but it is also possible that a distinct Ethiopian scientific tradition would form in this scenario. In OTL, Ethiopia lost its coastal territories to the Muslims fairly soon after the rise of Islam, and that was followed by an Ethiopian dark age of which fairly little is known.

But in this scenario, Ethiopia, or more precisely, Axum, would remain a naval power, and it would remain in direct contact with Egypt, the rest of the Eastern Mediterranean, the various nations of the southern Arabian Peninsula, East Africa, and India.

And it would be quite interesting to see an Ethiopian scientific tradition that combines strong Greek, Coptic, and Indian influences... (it's perhaps a bit of a stretch, but it is possible that the concept of zero is introduced in Europe from India through Ethiopia in this scenario, instead of from India through the Muslim states, like in OTL)
 
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Well, first of all; it would actually be pretty hard to predict what the world would be like without Islam, because any scenario without Islam has a lot of variables that are hard or even impossible to predict.

However, a few things are quite likely to happen in this scenario;

- No Dark Ages in Western Europe, but no Renaissance either.

I agree with the top part, but I don't see how Islamic conquests avoid the Dark Ages, which were already in progress before the emergence of Islam, and the Conquest advanced the level of civilzation in the areas it occurred, not the reverse.

Would the flowering of civilization in Southern France have occurred without the proximity of more intellectually free Muslim Spain? Probably not, but if it did, it would still have been smashed by the reactionary Albigensian Crusade that was typical of the mindset of the times.

Europe and the Muslim world were not cut off from each other...
 
so who was it that said Islam knocked Christianity back?

Me. And I think without the dynamism of Islam to knock it back, Christianity would at least have been the primary religion in the Middle East, and probably Persia as well. It would no doubt have been bigger in India than in OTL, but probably not overwhelmingly so.
 
Me. And I think without the dynamism of Islam to knock it back, Christianity would at least have been the primary religion in the Middle East, and probably Persia as well. It would no doubt have been bigger in India than in OTL, but probably not overwhelmingly so.

I don't see it being bigger in India - it would have to have a way to spread there, which in OTL was Europe, which was able to do so because of technological progress made possible by Islam.

Without Islam, it's possible that Arabia itself could go Christian, but that seems unlikely to me - most likely it would remain pagan, or develop some other form of monotheism, and the Arabians were the medium of transmission of ideas through their ubiquity in Indian Ocean trade.

If Arabia became Christian, it would be as a peripheral province of the Byzantine Empire and would lack the dynamism of being at the center of a new and energetic polity.
 
I don't see it being bigger in India - it would have to have a way to spread there, which in OTL was Europe, which was able to do so because of technological progress made possible by Islam.

In OTL, Christianity already was in India when Islam emerged.

The Christians of Kerala adhered the Church of the East, and there were small communities of Christians in northern India as well. I'm not saying that, without Islam, these communities would automatically lead to a significant Christian minority in large parts of India, but it is nonetheless not unlikely that there would have been at least a number of surviving Christian communities in India.

The presence of Christianity in the area was the result of the tradition of the Church of the East to send out wandering monks and preachers.

The Church of the East had a stable presence in Central Asia (there was a number of Nestorian archbishoprics in Central Asia, including one in Merv that existed since the 5th century), and the Nestorian preachers simply followed the trade routes, and a number of those trade routes led to India.

And there was also contact between the Christian communities on the coasts the Persian Gulf with Christian communities in other places, like Kerala and the cities of southern Arabia.

And allthough it will take more than wandering preachers to make Christianity a majority religion anywhere in Asia, these wandering preachers have managed to establish quite a few stable Christian communities this way.

There is also a good reason to assume that the Church of the East would do a lot better without Islam; without Islam, Timur Lenk would be butterflied away, and it was Timur Lenk's devastating invasion of the Middle East that effectively destroyed the central hierarchy of the Church of the East.

And the Church of the East, which consisted mainly of a large number of relatively small Christian communities that were spread across large parts of Asia, was effectively on the verge of overstretch at this point, which is why the destruction of the Church's leadership basically led to the collapse of the Church's hierarchy, which led to the collapse of the Church of the East itself soon after.

Without Islam, it's possible that Arabia itself could go Christian, but that seems unlikely to me - most likely it would remain pagan, or develop some other form of monotheism, and the Arabians were the medium of transmission of ideas through their ubiquity in Indian Ocean trade.

It's indeed quite likely that several different religions and sects would develop in Arabia.

By the way, didn't the Byzantines exile heretics and their followers to Mesopotamia and the Hijaz?

If Arabia became Christian, it would be as a peripheral province of the Byzantine Empire and would lack the dynamism of being at the center of a new and energetic polity.

I strongly doubt wether a Christian Arabia would automatically have fallen under Byzantine influence, since the two most popular branches of Christianity in Arabia were the Church of the East and the Syriac Orthodox Church.

The Syriac Orthodox Church was doing missionairy work in the Hijaz, and there were established Nestorian communities along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. The island of Bahrain alone had two bishoprics, which indicates the presence of a sizable and well-established Christian community there, and I also recall that the remnants of several churches and monasteries have been found along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf in the past few decades.

Without Islam, it is quite propable that Syriac Orthodox influence would have become stronger in the Hijaz, and the Church of the East would have become even stronger in the area of the Persian Gulf.

There were also communities of Christians in the cities of southern Arabia, but those were fairly small. The most likely way in which southern Arabia is Christianized, is through a second Ethiopian conquest.

Central Arabia will most propably remain pagan long after the coastal areas have been Christianized.
 
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Philip

Donor
I don't see it being bigger in India - it would have to have a way to spread there, which in OTL was Europe, which was able to do so because of technological progress made possible by Islam.

Christianity was in India before Islam existed. China too.

Without Islam, it's possible that Arabia itself could go Christian, but that seems unlikely to me
OTL, it was well on its way. Peter-Aspebet, a Bedouin shiehk, and his family converted around AD 420. By 500, Christians were well established in Northern Yemen. Had Islam not arisen, it is likely that (Nestorian) Christianity would have continued to spread.

If Arabia became Christian, it would be as a peripheral province of the Byzantine Empire
Not necessarily. These Christians were Nestorian. Becoming part of the Sassanid Empire is more likely.
 
This has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with the empire created by Muslims. It is certainly possible that some other culture could build a similar empire.

Who? The Byzantines? The Sassanids?

They didn't OTL.

At least you worked Islam in here. However, pilgrimage is not unique to Islam. Christians had been making pilgrimages to Jerusalem since at least the Fourth Century, and such pilgrimages were highly encouraged (read St Jerome). The also regularly traveled to Constantinople and Rome. Countless other sites were also visited. I am fairly certain Hindus and Buddhists also make pilgrimages. Further, we need not have the pilgrimage be religious in nature.

But who came across wide areas of Eurasia, or were likely to do so?

(I'm with Watson on this one).

Of course, just because we are assuming there is no Islam, we do not need to assume that these merchants are of different religions. It is possible that another religion could spread across these lands. Even still, merchants do not need to be of the same religion to do business.

But it certainly helps.

1) The Nestorian Schism never occurs. Chalcedonian Christianity stretches from Spain to China (even if not as the dominate religion). The faithful travel to Jerusalem as part of a pilgrimage. Bishops from all of Christidom occasionally (say, once every 100 years or so) for Ecumenical Councils. We get the same cultural exchange as OTL, but perhaps a century or two sooner.

Do we? The volume of trade in the Indian Ocean during the Islamic era is far greater than that of the era of Byzantine/Sassanid rivaly. What changes?

. Functionaries from all over the empire travel to Ctesiphon. Diplomats and merchants come from even further. Again, we achieve the same cultural exchange.

It should not be hard to come up with others.

I think this comes close; but you're comparing another ATL to OTL, not one where the world develops without Islam because Mohammed chokes on a date in 623 or something.
 

Philip

Donor
Who? The Byzantines? The Sassanids?

They didn't OTL.

Correct, because of the presence of the Islamic Empire. However, this thread supposes that there is no Islam. Are suggesting that no one would fill the vacuum left?

But who came across wide areas of Eurasia, or were likely to do so?
Yes, if it became safe to travel. They were already coming from the entire Roman Empire. If relationships with other lands were politically improved, they would come from elsewhere as well.

Do we? The volume of trade in the Indian Ocean during the Islamic era is far greater than that of the era of Byzantine/Sassanid rivaly. What changes?
Many things could change. Either one of these empires could be victorious. A third empire could displace both. Even a polytheistic Arabic empire.

I think this comes close; but you're comparing another ATL to OTL, not one where the world develops without Islam because Mohammed chokes on a date in 623 or something.
Um, any world in which Islam does not develop is ATL. What exactly am I supposed to compare it to? The OP did not specify why Islam did not come about, just that it didn't. Both of my scenarios meet that requirement and allow for the cultural exchange needed for the development of Europe. If you want, I'll think of one that begins in 623.
 
Correct, because of the presence of the Islamic Empire. However, this thread supposes that there is no Islam. Are suggesting that no one would fill the vacuum left?

But who?

Yes, if it became safe to travel. They were already coming from the entire Roman Empire. If relationships with other lands were politically improved, they would come from elsewhere as well.

I dunno. The scale of pilgrimage doesn't seem as great in Christianity at this point as it does in the Islamic world.

I still stand by my comment on things like cotton, sugar, and so forth. They aren't as sexy as gunpowder or the science, but without them ISTM that Europe as a whole is much poorer.

Many things could change. Either one of these empires could be victorious. A third empire could displace both. Even a polytheistic Arabic empire.

But how likely is this? Byzantium couldn't count on loyalty from its own subjects in Syria and Egypt; to imagine it ruling Mesopotamia peacably beggars belief, no?

Um, any world in which Islam does not develop is ATL. What exactly am I supposed to compare it to? The OP did not specify why Islam did not come about, just that it didn't. Both of my scenarios meet that requirement and allow for the cultural exchange needed for the development of Europe.

I'm inclined to disagree about the first one, as I've noticed.
 
Yes, I know. In very, very small numbers until spread by European arms and missionaries.

I'm not so sure about Nestorian Christianity - I suppose it's possible, but it never really got far and petered out before the European Imperial era even began.

In Yemen, I think the whole point is that it was the collapse of Yemen that opened up the way for Islam. I think Nestorianism was a pretty remote possibility - I'd rank it behind the Ethiopian church and Judaism. And both those behind Zoroastrianism.

Christianity was in India before Islam existed. China too.

OTL, it was well on its way. Peter-Aspebet, a Bedouin shiehk, and his family converted around AD 420. By 500, Christians were well established in Northern Yemen. Had Islam not arisen, it is likely that (Nestorian) Christianity would have continued to spread.

Not necessarily. These Christians were Nestorian. Becoming part of the Sassanid Empire is more likely.
 
I meant that there is very little chance Arabia would become Christian unless it was conquered by the Byzantines.

In OTL, Christianity already was in India when Islam emerged.

The Christians of Kerala adhered the Church of the East, and there were small communities of Christians in northern India as well. I'm not saying that, without Islam, these communities would automatically lead to a significant Christian minority in large parts of India, but it is nonetheless not unlikely that there would have been at least a number of surviving Christian communities in India.

The presence of Christianity in the area was the result of the tradition of the Church of the East to send out wandering monks and preachers.

The Church of the East had a stable presence in Central Asia (there was a number of Nestorian archbishoprics in Central Asia, including one in Merv that existed since the 5th century), and the Nestorian preachers simply followed the trade routes, and a number of those trade routes led to India.

And there was also contact between the Christian communities on the coasts the Persian Gulf with Christian communities in other places, like Kerala and the cities of southern Arabia.

And allthough it will take more than wandering preachers to make Christianity a majority religion anywhere in Asia, these wandering preachers have managed to establish quite a few stable Christian communities this way.

There is also a good reason to assume that the Church of the East would do a lot better without Islam; without Islam, Timur Lenk would be butterflied away, and it was Timur Lenk's devastating invasion of the Middle East that effectively destroyed the central hierarchy of the Church of the East.

And the Church of the East, which consisted mainly of a large number of relatively small Christian communities that were spread across large parts of Asia, was effectively on the verge of overstretch at this point, which is why the destruction of the Church's leadership basically led to the collapse of the Church's hierarchy, which led to the collapse of the Church of the East itself soon after.



It's indeed quite likely that several different religions and sects would develop in Arabia.

By the way, didn't the Byzantines exile heretics and their followers to Mesopotamia and the Hijaz?



I strongly doubt wether a Christian Arabia would automatically have fallen under Byzantine influence, since the two most popular branches of Christianity in Arabia were the Church of the East and the Syriac Orthodox Church.

The Syriac Orthodox Church was doing missionairy work in the Hijaz, and there were established Nestorian communities along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. The island of Bahrain alone had two bishoprics, which indicates the presence of a sizable and well-established Christian community there, and I also recall that the remnants of several churches and monasteries have been found along the southern coast of the Persian Gulf in the past few decades.

Without Islam, it is quite propable that Syriac Orthodox influence would have become stronger in the Hijaz, and the Church of the East would have become even stronger in the area of the Persian Gulf.

There were also communities of Christians in the cities of southern Arabia, but those were fairly small. The most likely way in which southern Arabia is Christianized, is through a second Ethiopian conquest.

Central Arabia will most propably remain pagan long after the coastal areas have been Christianized.
 
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