No Islam

I actually think a fully armed, operational Byzantium would be one of the few powers that could take on the Mongols and win. The empire was more or less designed to deal with threats of that sort.
Ah, but would Byzantium still be fully operational? If there was no Islam to take down Persia, than the Byzantine-Persian wars are likely to continue. Even without Islam, Constantinople's going to be facing more than its share of external threats. Would they be in a much better position to take on the Mongols when the time came? That's a serious question, mind you: I don't have enough of a handle on the sorts of threats Byzantium would be facing in a non-Islamic world to guess.
 
Ah, but would Byzantium still be fully operational? If there was no Islam to take down Persia, than the Byzantine-Persian wars are likely to continue. Even without Islam, Constantinople's going to be facing more than its share of external threats. Would they be in a much better position to take on the Mongols when the time came? That's a serious question, mind you: I don't have enough of a handle on the sorts of threats Byzantium would be facing in a non-Islamic world to guess.
Check Agent of Byzantium, an Early Harry Turtledove Work, for The Answer ...

Lil' Hint ...

GUNPOWDER!

:eek:
 
Gunpowder on its own does not give any one nation a particularly heavy advantage on the battlefield.
EXACTLY, Provided your Spies can Steal The Recipe ...

Which All Winds up Leading to a Scene Involving Some VERY Drunk, Very Dead Kirghiz ...

That Somehow Turns into an Inter-Racial Make-Out Session!

:eek:
 
I tend to think it would - Islam was a much more formidable enemy than Persia, and yet the Byzantines weathered that one... And Heraklios did defeat Persia, under some pretty extreme handicaps...

Ah, but would Byzantium still be fully operational? If there was no Islam to take down Persia, than the Byzantine-Persian wars are likely to continue. Even without Islam, Constantinople's going to be facing more than its share of external threats. Would they be in a much better position to take on the Mongols when the time came? That's a serious question, mind you: I don't have enough of a handle on the sorts of threats Byzantium would be facing in a non-Islamic world to guess.
 
Been There, Done That....

... got the T-Shirt.

Worth sharing my thoughts though.

HTG

Quite hard to say... let us start with at least one basic presumption to narrow the possibilities down and assume further that no single power unifies the Arab Tribes (yes, whacking Mohammed thus insuring Omar had less to work with is needful). They are still due for a Volkswanderung but would neither get as far nor form any single megastate.

Working our way outward we have:
  • The Fertile Cresent (Persian Mesopotamia and Roman Syria/Palestine): Overrun in short order as the last round of wars left the Sassanids in a state of Collapse and the Monophystite lands only recently regained for New Rome on the edge of revolt (thier respective Lakhminid and Gassanid Arab client states would either be overrun or use the migrants to inflate their armies and invade in the hopes of riding the tiger). The Arab invaders _may_ impose thier own language over the Aramiac dialects spoken by commoners on both sides of the border, but would certainly adopt Nestorian Christianity and elements of Persian culture in the Mesopotamian kingdom(s) within a generation.

    In the former Roman lands (the locals would fight as fiercely for the sake of the alien heretics oppressing them as OTL) of the Levant, there would be if anything an anti-Roman backlash as the local Monophystite sect spreads down into the Hejaz and Yemen (probably growing annoyingly intolerant in the process, the Jews will be in better shape in the East).
  • Persia proper: Hosed. No wholesale overruning for the sake of a faith needed, banditry and adventurism would kick the whole thing down and the question is if one would-be Shah grabs the remaining mechanisms of state to estabish a new dynasty over the Persian Highlands or if the factions of surviving Persian nobility battle it out with the Arab interlopers (and each other) for a generation or three before any stable successor statelets stablize.

    Either way, Zorastorianism has put down enough roots for Judaism and (Nestorian) Christianity to remain minority faiths for the forseeable future
  • Egypt: The situation would probably be a lot less violent version of the Levantine one.

    Good sized number of Arabs/Bedouins passing through/raiding/settling, check.

    Local Legions and any appointees from Constantinople existing on sufferance if not driven out completely, check.

    Monophystite (Proto Coptic) Christanity acendant and making converts among the invaders, check.

    That being said, once it is clear to the Baselius that Egypt is lost (or face-saving forms can be worked out with whoever is in power in Alexandria) then there will be considerable contact and trade with the Bosphorus and relations will probably be more civil on the whole.
  • Central Asia: The Persian stretch of the Silk Road would be largely untouched by the madness further south, and odds are places like Samarkand would find themselves de-facto City-States. Culturally they would remain Persian although Buddhism and Nestorian Christianity would find themselves competing and/or merging.

    On the Steppes? I figure we are looking at (more or less, with considerable shading between) Chalcedonian Christainity & Rhomaioi culture spreading slowly into OTL Ukraine, Armenian Monophystism creeping through the Caucasus, and Perso-Nestoran/Buddhist culture shading into Sino-Buddhist influence heading east from the Caspian.
  • The Mahgreb: Primarily Chalcedonian, Latin in speech (at least among the coast/cities), and already having declared independence under one Gregory the Patrician? I am afraid Constantinople can write this place off too, especially if the local authorities recruit the local Berbers (mainly Pagan and a few Jewish converts) to save thier skins.

    That being said the Berbers are certain become kingmakers and then kings in their own right, converting and latinizing in the process much as the Germans did until a viable Reginum Mauratanium is an unescapable reality in the western Med. Enough Bedouins, and thier camels would make it this far west to insure the trans-Saharan trade routes kick into high gear more-or-less on schedule... with obvious ramifications for the face of Black Africa as well.
  • Roman Empire: One guy I spoke with said it best, 'The Rhomaioi lose the Levant, the Maghreb, and probably Egypt in short order... then take their fustrations out on the Bulgars.'

    The Theme system of freeholding soldier-yeomen would probably be a little slower to develop, especially if the Arab raids are less severe and OTL and relations with Egypt remain civil. However the need for reliable troops and increaces self sufficiency make it likely to come about anyway.
  • Barbarian Europe and further afield: Visigothic Spain is a write-off in case you are wondering. The real question is whether the Franks or the Mauretanians leap on the disintergrating carcass faster.

    The Franks are still the 800lb Gorilla of Western Europe, and will probably back the Pope's asperations to the hilt.

    The Arab traders of Oman will probably still be a factor. The question is whether they end up Nestorian Christians... or Buddhists?

Any thoughts?

HTG
 
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