No Islam. How far can Christianity expand?

Albert.Nik

Banned
@Intransigent Southerner Ethnic religion is misunderstood. Yes,small isolated tribal religions can be classified so but not large empires like Persia. Persia was repeatedly invaded over and over again so settlemebts,mixtures wouldn't be of any dearth. Also,the upper classes would care about all these more like Kings and priests. Below that,you would have good amount of others who married into or assimilated. Ethnic religions can be called pure ethnic religions if you are talking about some very isolated tribe. So in this case,since the ruling class remained more or less pure Western Iranian. Well,not completely but relatively but in a possible event of an invasion by either Slavs/Greeks or somebody in case of a powerful Byzantine Empire dominated by Greeks,Anatolians,Romans and Slavs,a possible invasion and conquest could start off a reform movement which could make Zoroastrianism an ethnic cum universal religion like earlier Vedic religion. This could make inroads into central Asia too. Refer my posts in the other thread about languages in MENA for more discussion.
 
Christianity will likely spread to all the regions it did IOTL by 1500, plus the Sahel. Persia is a big question mark, but I'm of the opinion that Zoroastrianism (which by this point was an ethnic religion, the faith of Aryan peoples par excellence) is unlikely to die out on its own without a foreign conquest. Absent a Christian conquest of Iran, Central Asia and the western steppe would likely remain a religious hodgepodge, with some Christian rulers but no Abrahamic religion ever becoming dominant.

I've seen it argued a lot that Zoroastrianism was moribund by the time of the Arab invasions and that there is a lot of evidence for large amounts of Christians in the Empire; what's your take?

There's this meme going around in this parts that China inevitably Christianizes without Islam. No evidence is ever provided for this.

We're dealing with a counterfactual, so it's kinda hard to provide evidence on that basis. My general belief is that Christianity will get brought along with trade routes and such, from there anything could theoretically happen. If events hypothetically take on the same route as they did IOTL in the steppe, Nestorianism could take the place Islam did historically.
 
I've seen it argued a lot that Zoroastrianism was moribund by the time of the Arab invasions and that there is a lot of evidence for large amounts of Christians in the Empire; what's your take?



We're dealing with a counterfactual, so it's kinda hard to provide evidence on that basis. My general belief is that Christianity will get brought along with trade routes and such, from there anything could theoretically happen. If events hypothetically take on the same route as they did IOTL in the steppe, Nestorianism could take the place Islam did historically.

Christianity was very much an ethnic religion of Aramaic speakers from Sassanid Mesopotamia and Mesopotamia was likely the most populated province. But, Zoroastrianism was the ethnic religion of Iranic speakers in the Sassanid Empire and Central Asia. Zoroastrian orthodoxy was never very popular, but that doesn't mean that the people didn't practice their own folk traditions and it was very ingrained in their lives and heritage. Zoroastrianism was the majority religion until the 11th century, 4 centuries after the Islamic conquest. Many of its traditions are still celebrated by Iranic peoples (im currently celebrating the winter solstice (Yalda) with my family). Its esoteric beliefs synchronized with heretical Islamic groups that eventually formed the popular form of Shia Islam in Iran.
 
I've seen it argued a lot that Zoroastrianism was moribund by the time of the Arab invasions and that there is a lot of evidence for large amounts of Christians in the Empire
Of course there were many Christians, since Zoroastrianism was the exclusive religion of the Aryans but the Shahanshah also ruled large numbers of non-Aryans (he was, after all, titled the King of Iran and Aniran, Aniran being Middle Persia for “Not Iran”). In Iraq Zoroastrianism was an almost exclusively ruling-class faith, which is why it apparently went extinct within a century of the Muslim conqust as the Persian nobility were replaced by Arabs, but in the Plateau various forms of Zoroastrianism were strong among all classes.

If events hypothetically take on the same route as they did IOTL in the steppe, Nestorianism could take the place Islam did historically.
China did not as a matter of fact convert to Islam.
 
Of course there were many Christians, since Zoroastrianism was the exclusive religion of the Aryans but the Shahanshah also ruled large numbers of non-Aryans (he was, after all, titled the King of Iran and Aniran, Aniran being Middle Persia for “Not Iran”). In Iraq Zoroastrianism was an almost exclusively ruling-class faith, which is why it apparently went extinct within a century of the Muslim conqust as the Persian nobility were replaced by Arabs, but in the Plateau various forms of Zoroastrianism were strong among all classes.

So in your opinion, it was not moribund, at least in the Iranian heartland?

China did not as a matter of fact convert to Islam.

Indeed, but that does not preclude a Christianity with a global critical mass catching on within it.
 
Christianity will likely spread to all the regions it did IOTL by 1500, plus the Sahel. Persia is a big question mark, but I'm of the opinion that Zoroastrianism (which by this point was an ethnic religion, the faith of Aryan peoples par excellence) is unlikely to die out on its own without a foreign conquest. Absent a Christian conquest of Iran, Central Asia and the western steppe would likely remain a religious hodgepodge, with some Christian rulers but no Abrahamic religion ever becoming dominant.

India will not convert. Southeast Asia I'm less sure about, since the OTL conversion of the Archipelago to Islam was strongly influenced by India's conquest by Perso-Turkic Muslims. China will not convert.


There's this meme going around in this parts that China inevitably Christianizes without Islam. No evidence is ever provided for this.

Muslims and Christians did not compete in China. Nestorian Christianity largely died out in the late Tang because a) Emperor Wuzong stamped down on foreign religions trying to convert people and b) unlike Manichaeism, which survived into the Ming in increasingly Buddhism-adulterated forms, Chinese Nestorianism was apparently not very open to Chinese converts rising high up in the hierarchy. Islam survived the Tang, and every following dynasty, because Muslims did not attempt to proselytize to Han Chinese. The modern Chinese-speaking Muslims (the Hui) are descendants of Muslims who immigrated to China and assimilated into Chinese culture.

The non-proselytizing Muslims did not compete with Christians for converts, and the presence of Muslims was completely irrelevant to the death of Christianity in imperial China. In a world without Islam, there might be a small Christian minority akin to the Hui, along with some Christian-influenced cults (like the Manichaean ones OTL) whose followers inevitably abandon the religion when they miraculously manage to gain power (just as Zhu Yuanzhang banned Manichaeism OTL). There is absolutely no reason China converts to Christianity.


Zoroastrianism was basically like a bigger Judaism by the point Islam came around. Sasanian orthodoxy did not really accept the notion that the faith should be spread to non-Aryan peoples.


The Uyghurs might beg to differ.

Its true that Zoroastrianism didn't traditionally seek to convert non-Aryans, but that didn't stop them from trying to convert Armenians and Yemen. Also, there was a tribe of Pecheneg Turks who became Zoroastrian.
 
So in your opinion, it was not moribund, at least in the Iranian heartland?
Not among its target demographic (Iranic peoples of the Plateau and Central Asia), no.

Indeed, but that does not preclude a Christianity with a global critical mass catching on within it.
No “critical mass” wanted to convert to Islam, Nestorianism, or Manichaeism OTL, so I don’t see why China would convert to Christianity following a POD removing a factor that was not very relevant to the end of Nestorianism there.

but that didn't stop them from trying to convert Armenians and Yemen.
The Sasanians believed that Armenians had formerly been Zoroastrians before their conversion, so that was exceptional and conceived of more as a reconversion or restoration. I also don’t believe there’s evidence for Pecheneg Zoroastrianism other than some Muslim sources calling them majūsī, but in that context the word probably means “pagan” unless the Vikings were also Zoroastrian.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Christianity was very much an ethnic religion of Aramaic speakers from Sassanid Mesopotamia and Mesopotamia was likely the most populated province. But, Zoroastrianism was the ethnic religion of Iranic speakers in the Sassanid Empire and Central Asia. Zoroastrian orthodoxy was never very popular, but that doesn't mean that the people didn't practice their own folk traditions and it was very ingrained in their lives and heritage. Zoroastrianism was the majority religion until the 11th century, 4 centuries after the Islamic conquest. Many of its traditions are still celebrated by Iranic peoples (im currently celebrating the winter solstice (Yalda) with my family). Its esoteric beliefs synchronized with heretical Islamic groups that eventually formed the popular form of Shia Islam in Iran.
I doubt a religion like Zoroastrianism would remain so ethnically centered if challenged by an another religion like that. In OTL,they didn't get such an opportunity to do so as they came under the onslaught of the Arab Tribes from whom even Byzantines and Goths weren't spared. So in absence of Islam,the Middle East would have a vacuum as Arabs are restricted to their caravans near Mecca and so. So the most powerful forces other than Byzantines were Franks,Goths and Slavs and even some Anatolians were existing.None whom Persians considered Aryan. All became Christian. Without Islam in the Persia and the Vacuum it exposes,one or two of these forces would probably come together after becoming very powerful in the Mediterranean to go East into Persia. Now Persian aristocracy would immediately on consultation of priests and clergy would make Zoroastrianism universalizing cum ethnic to defend against the invading hordes. So in this case,Zoroastrianism would also be widespread along with Christianity. What would happen eventually is decided by future encounters.
Armenians were not any Iranian BTW. They still became Zoroastrians.
 
Of course there were many Christians, since Zoroastrianism was the exclusive religion of the Aryans but the Shahanshah also ruled large numbers of non-Aryans (he was, after all, titled the King of Iran and Aniran, Aniran being Middle Persia for “Not Iran”). In Iraq Zoroastrianism was an almost exclusively ruling-class faith, which is why it apparently went extinct within a century of the Muslim conqust as the Persian nobility were replaced by Arabs, but in the Plateau various forms of Zoroastrianism were strong among all classes.


China did not as a matter of fact convert to Islam.

Didnt Baghdad have a Zoroastrian fire temple during the Abassid caliphate? So, not entirely extinct.
 
One question to ask is to what degree the various sects of Christianity regard each other as co-believers. I can easily see the Levant/Armenia/Egypt (& points SE) in one Oriental Orthodox faction winning free of Chalcedonian Rome (incl. Asia Minor, Europe, and perhaps the North African littoral). Meanwhile Persia and it's cultural sphere (including a lot of the steppe) goes in for 'Nestorianism'/CotE in large part out of hostility to the previous two... and if the Berbers go in for Donatism....
 

Philip

Donor
One question to ask is to what degree the various sects of Christianity regard each other as co-believers

This depends greatly on the timing of the the POD.

I can easily see the Levant/Armenia/Egypt (& points SE) in one Oriental Orthodox faction winning free of Chalcedonian Rome (incl. Asia Minor, Europe, and perhaps the North African littoral).

This is hardly guaranteed. If Justinian doesn't fall ill or the Sassanians don't run wild in the early VII Century, Miaphysitism could easily disappear in those areas. On the other hand, if the Sassanians take Constantinople, Dyophysitism could be in danger throughout the Roman East.

Meanwhile Persia and it's cultural sphere (including a lot of the steppe) goes in for 'Nestorianism'/CotE in large part out of hostility to the previous two...

Prior to the rise of Islam, Miaphysitism was on the rise in Persian, especially in the Mesopotamian elite. If that continues, Nestorianism could slowly die out.

and if the Berbers go in for Donatism....
Never really had a chance. Donatism was too splintered, lacked political support, and had difficulty attracting strong theological defenders.
 
Christianity will likely spread to all the regions it did IOTL by 1500, plus the Sahel. Persia is a big question mark, but I'm of the opinion that Zoroastrianism (which by this point was an ethnic religion, the faith of Aryan peoples par excellence) is unlikely to die out on its own without a foreign conquest. Absent a Christian conquest of Iran, Central Asia and the western steppe would likely remain a religious hodgepodge, with some Christian rulers but no Abrahamic religion ever becoming dominant.

India will not convert. Southeast Asia I'm less sure about, since the OTL conversion of the Archipelago to Islam was strongly influenced by India's conquest by Perso-Turkic Muslims. China will not convert.


There's this meme going around in this parts that China inevitably Christianizes without Islam. No evidence is ever provided for this.

Muslims and Christians did not compete in China. Nestorian Christianity largely died out in the late Tang because a) Emperor Wuzong stamped down on foreign religions trying to convert people and b) unlike Manichaeism, which survived into the Ming in increasingly Buddhism-adulterated forms, Chinese Nestorianism was apparently not very open to Chinese converts rising high up in the hierarchy. Islam survived the Tang, and every following dynasty, because Muslims did not attempt to proselytize to Han Chinese. The modern Chinese-speaking Muslims (the Hui) are descendants of Muslims who immigrated to China and assimilated into Chinese culture.


This study https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38656 contradicts the idea that the Hui are descendants of Muslim immigrants to China. It suggests, that, they are simply descendants of Han converts to Islam.
 
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It really doesn't. It's been established for decades that the Hui are genetically East Asian, because large numbers of Hui men married Han women. The point is that the Hui "founding population," so to speak, are not Han Chinese.
 
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