No Islam. How far can Christianity expand?

How far could Christianity expand without Islam? There can be various or new sects as long as it is still Christian. Additionally, what areas will have Latin, Greek, or what we now consider European cultures and ethnic/language groups? I imagine North Africa still speaking a Romance language.
 
How far could Christianity expand without Islam? There can be various or new sects as long as it is still Christian. Additionally, what areas will have Latin, Greek, or what we now consider European cultures and ethnic/language groups? I imagine North Africa still speaking a Romance language.
It already was established in various areas: Northern Africa, Nubia, etc. Also Balkans, partly Caucasus. So These areas remain Christian.
 
IOTL it was/remains dominant in the Europe, Americas, Australasia and large areas of Africa. Without Islam, it would become dominant in all of Africa, the Middle East, and the Asiatic Steppe. Vast sums of Asia would also likely Christianize, possibly including the "Big Three" of China, Korea and Japan. India will probably remain Hindu, however.
 

Philip

Donor
North Africa, Anatolia, the Levant, and the Caucasus are likely Christian. They are probably also remain culturally *western.

Christianity could spread to central Asia, but will face competition from Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Tengriism, and Buddhism. Arabia is possible, but I suspect it will remain mixed. Trans-saharan trade could spread Christianity to subsaharan Africa, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed. Indonesia is also possible.

Of course, this all assumes that no other ATL religions develope.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
North Africa, Anatolia, the Levant, and the Caucasus are likely Christian. They are probably also remain culturally *western.

Christianity could spread to central Asia, but will face competition from Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Tengriism, and Buddhism. Arabia is possible, but I suspect it will remain mixed. Trans-saharan trade could spread Christianity to subsaharan Africa, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed. Indonesia is also possible.

Of course, this all assumes that no other ATL religions develope.
Well,Arabia had Christianity spreading quite quickly. So Arabia is very much possible. In the Central Asia,Nestorian Christianity was prevalent among a significant amount of people in Sogdia,Tarim Basin,etc.
 
North Africa, Anatolia, the Levant, and the Caucasus are likely Christian. They are probably also remain culturally *western.

Christianity could spread to central Asia, but will face competition from Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Tengriism, and Buddhism. Arabia is possible, but I suspect it will remain mixed. Trans-saharan trade could spread Christianity to subsaharan Africa, but I'm not sure that's guaranteed. Indonesia is also possible.

Of course, this all assumes that no other ATL religions develope.
Isn't Manicheanism just a other form of Christianity? I think Tengriism will be wiped by the other religions. Buddhism and Zoroastrian could spread and be competition.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
The Western Middle East is undoubtedly Christian in this TL. Probably Greek orthodox majority and minority Coptic,Syriac,Arabian and Judaism. Eastern Mesopotamia would be Zoroastrian dominated and fringe towns like Raqqa,Kobane,Amida,etc would be a mix.
That is Zoroastrianism cannot remain a completely ethnic religion in this timeline as competition with Christianity would be huge. So it might become a some kind of universal religion within some limits. Caucasus and Armenia would be Christian majority with a Zoroastrian minority. Arabia would be a mix. India would be very different in terms of Religion without Islam. Islam influenced various concepts for today's Hinduism so without all of that,it would become a twin to Zoroastrianism. Central Asia would have a Zoroastrian Iranian/Tocharian majority with Nestorian/Greek orthodox/Catholic minority who'd fill the vacuum without Islam and be of various origins. Central Asia in general would be unrecognisable. Coming to Africa,entire Northeasr Africa above the Sahara and the Horn would be Christian possibly Greek(or any other) Orthodox with large settlements and possible conquests happening by the Byzantines. Northwest Africa would be Catholic dominated by Goths or Franks. East Indies would anyway be Buddhist or Hindu.
 
No? It is a completely different religion that borrows many concepts from Christianity, but also has elements from Buddhism, Zoroastrianism as well as completely new ideas.
Ok, I don't have much knowledge on Manicheanism. How common and big was it? Does it have the ability to out do Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism in the region?
 
The Western Middle East is undoubtedly Christian in this TL. Probably Greek orthodox majority and minority Coptic,Syriac,Arabian and Judaism. Eastern Mesopotamia would be Zoroastrian dominated and fringe towns like Raqqa,Kobane,Amida,etc would be a mix.
That is Zoroastrianism cannot remain a completely ethnic religion in this timeline as competition with Christianity would be huge. So it might become a some kind of universal religion within some limits. Caucasus and Armenia would be Christian majority with a Zoroastrian minority. Arabia would be a mix. India would be very different in terms of Religion without Islam. Islam influenced various concepts for today's Hinduism so without all of that,it would become a twin to Zoroastrianism. Central Asia would have a Zoroastrian Iranian/Tocharian majority with Nestorian/Greek orthodox/Catholic minority who'd fill the vacuum without Islam and be of various origins. Central Asia in general would be unrecognisable. Coming to Africa,entire Northeasr Africa above the Sahara and the Horn would be Christian possibly Greek(or any other) Orthodox with large settlements and possible conquests happening by the Byzantines. Northwest Africa would be Catholic dominated by Goths or Franks. East Indies would anyway be Buddhist or Hindu.
Would the Sub Sahara trade between Catholic North Africa lead to Christianity spreading there in a similar way as Islam did. If it did would they form their own form of Christianity or would it be Catholic? If it is Catholic would the church and pope try to spread its authority there? It would be interesting to see the impact of a centralizing force there. Also would Egypt be Coptic with a Orthodox minority who could possibly being the ruling class if under Eastern Roman Empire rule?
 
Big. It stretched from Rome to China. St Augustine was a Manichean before converting to Christianity.



I am of the opinion that it would never be the dominant religion, but could be a influential minority religion across Eurasia and North Africa.
So something like the Sikhs in India but spread out more?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Would the Sub Sahara trade between Catholic North Africa lead to Christianity spreading there in a similar way as Islam did. If it did would they form their own form of Christianity or would it be Catholic? If it is Catholic would the church and pope try to spread its authority there? It would be interesting to see the impact of a centralizing force there. Also would Egypt be Coptic with a Orthodox minority who could possibly being the ruling class if under Eastern Roman Empire rule?
SSA is hard to say anything about. Though it was on the same continent,it wasn't well connected. It was a sort of semi nomadic or semi tribal setting and with forested and desert barriers. So North Africa would be into two. East North Africa would include Sinai,Egypt and Cyrene which would be Byzantine Orthodox and Coptic dominated which would result in a more or less amalgamation after centuries of empire. NorthWest Africa which would include Tunisia,Algeria and Morocco would be Catholic and dominated by a majority of Goths or Franks or any other Germanic peoples with a remaining Roman population if not taken back by the ERE. So SSA might not have Christianity until colonial era in this timeline as well. None of these empires had the capability of going that far down unless sufficiently advanced.
 
SSA is hard to say anything about. Though it was on the same continent,it wasn't well connected. It was a sort of semi nomadic or semi tribal setting and with forested and desert barriers. So North Africa would be into two. East North Africa would include Sinai,Egypt and Cyrene which would be Byzantine Orthodox and Coptic dominated which would result in a more or less amalgamation after centuries of empire. NorthWest Africa which would include Tunisia,Algeria and Morocco would be Catholic and dominated by a majority of Goths or Franks or any other Germanic peoples with a remaining Roman population if not taken back by the ERE. So SSA might not have Christianity until colonial era in this timeline as well. None of these empires had the capability of going that far down unless sufficiently advanced.
Why wouldn't the same trade routes between the two regions not form like it did in our timeline?
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Why wouldn't the same trade routes between the two regions not form like it did in our timeline?
Even with the trade routes,you cannot have somebody who isn't used to anything in the Outside world to Convert to the religion. Most of the SSA peoples before the colonialism as I said were a purely Tribal setting and semi Nomadic setting. They wouldn't care much about Christianity especially that so few had even seen anything outside.
 

Philip

Donor
Even with the trade routes,you cannot have somebody who isn't used to anything in the Outside world to Convert to the religion.

Islam spread into the Sahel and beyond long before the European colonial period. Why couldn't Christianity follow the same route?
 
Christianity will likely spread to all the regions it did IOTL by 1500, plus the Sahel. Persia is a big question mark, but I'm of the opinion that Zoroastrianism (which by this point was an ethnic religion, the faith of Aryan peoples par excellence) is unlikely to die out on its own without a foreign conquest. Absent a Christian conquest of Iran, Central Asia and the western steppe would likely remain a religious hodgepodge, with some Christian rulers but no Abrahamic religion ever becoming dominant.

India will not convert. Southeast Asia I'm less sure about, since the OTL conversion of the Archipelago to Islam was strongly influenced by India's conquest by Perso-Turkic Muslims. China will not convert.

possibly including the "Big Three" of China, Korea and Japan
There's this meme going around in this parts that China inevitably Christianizes without Islam. No evidence is ever provided for this.

Muslims and Christians did not compete in China. Nestorian Christianity largely died out in the late Tang because a) Emperor Wuzong stamped down on foreign religions trying to convert people and b) unlike Manichaeism, which survived into the Ming in increasingly Buddhism-adulterated forms, Chinese Nestorianism was apparently not very open to Chinese converts rising high up in the hierarchy. Islam survived the Tang, and every following dynasty, because Muslims did not attempt to proselytize to Han Chinese. The modern Chinese-speaking Muslims (the Hui) are descendants of Muslims who immigrated to China and assimilated into Chinese culture.

The non-proselytizing Muslims did not compete with Christians for converts, and the presence of Muslims was completely irrelevant to the death of Christianity in imperial China. In a world without Islam, there might be a small Christian minority akin to the Hui, along with some Christian-influenced cults (like the Manichaean ones OTL) whose followers inevitably abandon the religion when they miraculously manage to gain power (just as Zhu Yuanzhang banned Manichaeism OTL). There is absolutely no reason China converts to Christianity.

Zoroastrian could spread
Zoroastrianism was basically like a bigger Judaism by the point Islam came around. Sasanian orthodoxy did not really accept the notion that the faith should be spread to non-Aryan peoples.

I am of the opinion that it would never be the dominant religion
The Uyghurs might beg to differ.
 
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