No Irish Famine

[Tyr]

I think you confuse good manners with friendliness. The Irish are a notoriously hospitable and friendly people in general. But that doesn't mean that, inside where it counts, they don't hate you. Bear in mind I have only the experience of Irish-Americans to guide me, never having been to Ireland myself (more's the pity). But my family is predominently Scots and Irish, and I can tell you, my grandparents...who were by that time fifth and sixth generation Americans...regularly cursed the "bloody English." The hatred had been passed down that many generations.

But that did not make them impolite people when they actually met an Englishman in person.

err....no.
The only Irish who hate the English are the stupid misguided right wing types who are on a par with British German haing sun readers.
Irish Americans are not Irish, they are a totally different breed who have been away from Ireland a long time and have no right to speak for the Irish. I have heard they do have a irrational hatred for the English which does seem to be a crazy misguided thing due to a lack of knowledge about the actual history. i.e. they seem to believe Northern Ireland is under the occupation of the evil UK and everyone in Ulster is valiantly struggling to have a united Eire.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I read that in many cases, Catholic Irish refused to accept the charity of the Protestants--they thought it was an attempt to convert them to Protestantism.

In "Angela's Ashes," there's a scene where the mother threatens to go to the Quakers for food and this Irish guy goes on this tirade about the "Soupers" (Catholics who took Protestant charity) and how they converted to Protestantism and went to hell. She then tells him that to save her soul and that of the children, he'd better help her.

 

[Idris O'Cahan]

Actually, there *were* attempts at conversion by some protestants engaged in aid distribution - and if memory serves, there were other protestants who found this most unsporting.

And for the record, I don't hate English people, nor does anyone I know. Even the hardcore republicans will tell you it's the British state they're opposed to, not English people (though this is hard to square with e.g. the Birmingham and Guilford bombings).

As for it being easy to blame external powers for your problems - it's even easier when the external powers *are* to blame for your problems!

 

[SteveW]

And for the record, I don't hate English people, nor does anyone I know. Even the hardcore republicans will tell you it's the British state they're opposed to, not English people (though this is hard to square with e.g. the Birmingham and Guilford bombings).

Exactly, it's nice that an Irishman could be here to back up my point!!!

And of course it's vice versa- English people never hated the Irish, just the IRA.

As for the Irish-American thing: it's correct to say they are totally different from the Irish. They are to the Irish in the same way Australians are to the Irish- separate development, separate culture.

 

[Derek Jackson]

Exactly, it's nice that an Irishman could be here to back up my point!!!

And of course it's vice versa- English people never hated the Irish, just the IRA.

In living memory in London there were signs on boarding houses that said no black, Irish or dogs. (This was at a time when there was no significant IRA activity

 

[birdy]

In living memory in London there were signs on boarding houses that said no black, Irish or dogs. (This was at a time when there was no significant IRA activity

Wasnt that overexagerrated, I'm half irish and never detected any hostility to the Irish in Britain- i think research found that less then 10% of boarding houses had those signs and it was mainly the carribean immigrants that suffered.

 

[DoleScum]

Wasnt that overexagerrated, I'm half irish and never detected any hostility to the Irish in Britain- i think research found that less then 10% of boarding houses had those signs and it was mainly the carribean immigrants that suffered.

I doubt that was widespread, given the size of the migrant Irish populations in cities like London, Manchester, Newcastle and Glasgow, sticking a sign on a pub saying 'No Irish' would be suicidal, both for yourself and your business.

The huge number of British tourists that flock to Ireland every summer is testiment to the more mainstram view of the Irish, as is the mass participation in St Paddy's day piss ups in most British towns.

 

[birdy]

I doubt that was widespread, given the size of the migrant Irish populations in cities like London, Manchester, Newcastle and Glasgow, sticking a sign on a pub saying 'No Irish' would be suicidal, both for yourself and your business.

The huge number of British tourists that flock to Ireland every summer is testiment to the more mainstram view of the Irish, as is the mass participation in St Paddy's day piss ups in most British towns.

To add to that, too many people had at least part Irish ancestry by that time- the general impression i've got of the arrivals in the 50's was that many of them got on rather well with the working class local's- there arrival certainly didnt attract nearly as much hostility as smaller numbers of non white's coming at more or less the same time.

 

[SteveW]

In living memory in London there were signs on boarding houses that said no black, Irish or dogs. (This was at a time when there was no significant IRA activity

To be fair, Derek, that's quite long living memory- I would reckon Fifties, early Sixties. I've never seen any anti-Irish prejudice over here- though I do live in a city with a high Irish-descended population. There's never been major anti-Irish violence in England (in Scotland, maybe, but that's a different matter), at least in this century. And I've never heard of anti-English violence in Ireland. Plus, the English and Irish have been migrating freely across our Isles for a long, long time.

 

[Idris O'Cahan]

Don't get carried away. During the 1970s, the Prevention of Terrorism Act was used in a pretty indiscriminate way against the community (though we shouldn't forget this was as a result of the provisionals' bombing campaign). This is the era of the Birmingham Six and Guilford Four cases, don't forget.

Other consequences of there not being an Irish famine:

1. A larger population in congested areas leads to *more* emigration and larger Irish communities in the UK and US (the I-Ams aren't entirely non-Irish btw, especially if their connection is one or two generations back). Consequences for politics back home would be unpredictable.

2. Greater class consciousness and class divisions in Ireland itself, which would not have been obscured by the common memory of a common disaster. Hence a greater role for class politics.

3. The famine broke up the old nucleated pattern of settlement, where communities would huddle together. If that had persisted, it would have given the British state greater opportunities for repression and control of the population, making a successful revolution less likely, if not impossible.

 

[birdy]

Welcome to the board Idris

 

[Sir Isaac Brock]

(the I-Ams aren't entirely non-Irish btw, especially if their connection is one or two generations back)

THANKYOU!!!

There is a very strong tendency on this board to dismiss every member of the Irish Diaspora as a IRA-loving "plastic paddy" who knows nothing Irish history but is nevertheless violently anti-English.

To that I say: "sod off!"

I'm a (half) Irish-Canadian who loves the Queen and the Commonwealth and thinks the British Empire was (often) a force for good. I also think that the 800 years of English intervention were mostly bad for Ireland. But that doesn't mean I'm mindless about it in either way. I try to take a subtle approach and don't rush to give an opinion until I've heard all the facts from people with more knowledge than myself.

Of course it could be because my grandfather was Catholic and my grandmother was Protestant, so I see the conflict from both sides.

Anyway, I don't claim to be as Irish as the Irish born, nor do I want some special right try to decide the policies of another state. But at the same time to dismiss me as some sort of johnny-come-lately tourist misses the point that I'm connected to the place through a family tree that goes all the way back to the arrival of the Celts, that I make an effort to inform myself of the history and current events, and that I've made a conscious choice to self-indentify as Irish. I view nationality or ethnicity as a partly as a choice. In a society like Canada's, one can choose to maintain their heritage or ignore it. I don't claim to be the "expert" or perfect example, but I've chosen the former because I'm am fascinated with being part of an unbroken chain of history.

(gets off soapbox)

 

[DuQuense]

1. A larger population in congested areas leads to *more* emigration and larger Irish communities in the UK and US

Ireleand 1856 population 8 million
Ireland Population 1865 6 million

A million Dead & a Million Fled.

This means that Ireland Emmigratted 12.5% of its population.
?Any one know what percent of Italy's or Germany's population Emmigrated during the 1880~1910 wave?

With out the Force of knowing you would die if you stayed, ?Would a Higher percent really have left.

 

[SteveW]

THANKYOU!!!

There is a very strong tendency on this board to dismiss every member of the Irish Diaspora as a IRA-loving "plastic paddy" who knows nothing Irish history but is nevertheless violently anti-English.

To that I say: "sod off!"

I'm a (half) Irish-Canadian who loves the Queen and the Commonwealth and thinks the British Empire was (often) a force for good. I also think that the 800 years of English intervention were mostly bad for Ireland. But that doesn't mean I'm mindless about it in either way. I try to take a subtle approach and don't rush to give an opinion until I've heard all the facts from people with more knowledge than myself.

Of course it could be because my grandfather was Catholic and my grandmother was Protestant, so I see the conflict from both sides.

Most people would agree that if you have Irish relatives in the last four generations, then you are Irish-(insert nationality here). But you must admit there comes a limit. I'd guess that a fifth-generation Irish-American is not exactly going to be of pure Irish descent.

I mean, if I go back 5 generations on one side, I'm part of the Maltese Diaspora.
Not that I could possibly self-define as Maltese-English. I think people would laugh if I did.

 

[Sir Isaac Brock]

Most people would agree that if you have Irish relatives in the last four generations, then you are Irish-(insert nationality here). But you must admit there comes a limit. I'd guess that a fifth-generation Irish-American is not exactly going to be of pure Irish descent.

Is blood purity required for the social aspects of ethnic heritage?

I mean, if I go back 5 generations on one side, I'm part of the Maltese Diaspora.
Not that I could possibly self-define as Maltese-English. I think people would laugh if I did.

That depends. Would who actually put any effort into trying to cultivate any kind of "Malteseness"? If yes, then I wouldn't laugh at all.

 

[Wozza]

The Catholic population in Ireland had been reduced to extreme poverty and had almost no legal or political rights at all in their own country. Even if they could afford it, they were denied an education, were legally prevented from practicing any profession, in many cases were not allowed to own or inherit land, all because of their religion. Many left not only because of the potato famine, but also to find freedom. There was a large influx of Irish Catholics to The United States in the 1890's and early 1900's some 50 to 60 years after the potato famine, and they came seeking freedom.

I see that you have not actually heard of the Catholic Emancipation Act - 1829. I am impressed that you see fit to pontificate on 19th century Irish history without such basic knowledge.

 

[Wozza]

As for it being easy to blame external powers for your problems - it's even easier when the external powers *are* to blame for your problems!

Are the British to blame for the famine? It is impossible to answer if Ireland would have been more developed with a better diet without British rule, Although it is of course a possibility.

I imagine there is also a case to be made on the level of rents and where the money went, I imagine there are some detailed studies somewhere.

It is clear though that one way or another Britain pumps quite a lot of money into Ireland, especially once the famine starts - The Corn Laws are also repealed in response.

 

[SteveW]

Is blood purity required for the social aspects of ethnic heritage?

.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there comes a line where people in most countries identify not with their distant ethnic heritage, but with the country they are from. And I guess in different countries, people have different views on where that line is. In Britain, it's less common for people to self-define based on what their family's ethnic heritage was even one generation ago (though granted there are nonetheless a large number who do).

Ah well, back onto the topic. Is there a potential POD that will just stop the potato becoming so dominant?

 

[Max Sinister]

Hm, a different system of heritage? Instead of dividing the farm land, everything goes to the eldest son. The other ones will have to find different jobs - as monks and priests, as artisans and traders in the cities, as mercenaries, as emigrants (note: way earlier than 19th century!)... whatever.

 

[DuQuense]

You may be able to have Corn[Maize] -instead of/ with- Potatoes.

One problem was the English made the landowners reponsable for the poor relief. the landowners them gave out watered down Barley Soup, due to having to import the Barley into Ireland. If there was a Subsitute already being grown, it would have been easier to change over.