No HRE

I'm just throwing this out there.

What happens if Pope Leo III isn't saved by Magnus Forteman, he dies at the hands of the Roman mob.
The Title Holy Roman Emperor isn't created.

Will another Pope create it later, will there be another chance, as once the Frankish Empire starts it's process of subdivision, the title would be less and less useful, and feasable for any Pope to create.

So lets say the HRE never exists, this removes what in many ways, is a spanner in the works of Euroean history.
As an example, the various Emperors are less attractive as marriage targets, - Mary of Burgundy and Archduke Maximilian of Austria.

This over arching power - yet also powerless body - of the HRE removes a complication from central Europe, that i think increased the tendency to chaos.
 
I'm just throwing this out there.

What happens if Pope Leo III isn't saved by Magnus Forteman, he dies at the hands of the Roman mob.
The Title Holy Roman Emperor isn't created.

Will another Pope create it later, will there be another chance, as once the Frankish Empire starts it's process of subdivision, the title would be less and less useful, and feasable for any Pope to create.

So lets say the HRE never exists, this removes what in many ways, is a spanner in the works of Euroean history.
As an example, the various Emperors are less attractive as marriage targets, - Mary of Burgundy and Archduke Maximilian of Austria.

This over arching power - yet also powerless body - of the HRE removes a complication from central Europe, that i think increased the tendency to chaos.

Even if the Maximilian would just have been German king, he would still have been an attractive candidate for Mary; because it in end it didn't affect their real power that much (and lucky for them, their arranged marriage seemed to have been happy).
However no HRE has a lot of butterfles, so Mary and Maximilian are likely to be butterflied away.
 
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Granted.

But do you think that central europe will be less of a patch work.

Without the HRE the German kingdom and the kingdoms of Italy and kingdom of Burgundy are more likely to remain independent from eachother. Although the German kingdom and France will have some influence on these regions. Furthermore it would be more easy to develop into a hereditary monarchy like IOTL France, however it say much about the power of the monarch. Perhaps it won't turn into a collection of semi-independent states, but ITTL the German kings has to sign the German variant of the Magna Carta.
 
Without the HRE the German kingdom and the kingdoms of Italy and kingdom of Burgundy are more likely to remain independent from eachother. Although the German kingdom and France will have some influence on these regions. Furthermore it would be more easy to develop into a hereditary monarchy like IOTL France, however it say much about the power of the monarch. Perhaps it won't turn into a collection of semi-independent states, but ITTL the German kings has to sign the German variant of the Magna Carta.

Would it really be easier? On one hand, the crown only has to worry about Germany. On the other hand, that's not what kept it from becoming hereditary OTL.

Charlemagne being made a (Holy was added later) Roman Emperor didn't change his territory or power by an acre or a single soldier, so I'm not sure how this handles things like the Kingdom of East Francia and so forth (have to get through that before we get the KoG).

Lots of butterflies depending on how different the divisions are, and how the people rising differ.
 
Or letting imaginations fly.
What if Leo had - lots of trickery, maybe he gets Charlie really drunk LOL -
gotten Charlemagne to crown the Pope head of a different HRE, playing on his ego, one that by definition all Catholic lands were part of.

I hope thats not confusing, things, it reverses the situation.
 
Or letting imaginations fly.
What if Leo had - lots of trickery, maybe he gets Charlie really drunk LOL -
gotten Charlemagne to crown the Pope head of a different HRE, playing on his ego, one that by definition all Catholic lands were part of.

Well, in theory, Charles was crowned emperor of the Roman Empire. All of it. Including but not limited to the part centered on the Bosporus.

In practice, the fact that France etc. weren't part of that has to do with the fact they could and did reject the emperors who tried to make them part of that after the divisions of the Carolingian empire broke it up.
 
Ah, thanx very much, thats what im looking for, ive looked on the net, cant find stuff on that, any pointers welcome please.
 
Would it really be easier? On one hand, the crown only has to worry about Germany. On the other hand, that's not what kept it from becoming hereditary OTL.

Charlemagne being made a (Holy was added later) Roman Emperor didn't change his territory or power by an acre or a single soldier, so I'm not sure how this handles things like the Kingdom of East Francia and so forth (have to get through that before we get the KoG).

Lots of butterflies depending on how different the divisions are, and how the people rising differ.

Your right, no imperial coronation of Charlemagne, means a remaining kingdom of the Franks, which can later be divided. However each division is more equal and has the same potential outcome; East, Middle and West Francia can all end up different or there's a different division altogether.

I started out from just before the Ottonian restoration by Otto I the Great, which usually starts or restarts the HRE.

No empire could also have a positive effect on the relationship with the Eastern Roman 'Byzantine' Empire.
 
I always get the impression that the HRE encouraged chaos, as it sought to prevent any German Kingdom from becoming too powerful. It also i think had a tendency to spread war, and to just involve everyone in things that might not have been there buisness otherwise. i.e the great Saxon revolt.
it allowed the papacy to have a power in German politics, it never would have had otherwise. And the Pope didnt want a unified Germany.
 
I always get the impression that the HRE encouraged chaos, as it sought to prevent any German Kingdom from becoming too powerful. It also i think had a tendency to spread war, and to just involve everyone in things that might not have been there buisness otherwise. i.e the great Saxon revolt.
it allowed the papacy to have a power in German politics, it never would have had otherwise. And the Pope didnt want a unified Germany.

I think you mean German principalities, since during the HRE there only was one German kingdom, together with the kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy held by the king of the Romans/Holy Roman Emperor and the kingdom of Bohemia, which had an own ruler, who could be elected HRE.

Regarding the Pope not wanting a unified Germany, they mainly didn't want a united HRE and their main concern was to ensure that the HRE didn't become too powerful in Italy.
Without the HRE and Italy, rivaling the own political position of the Pope in Italy, the German kingdom would have been treated in a similar manner as France or England.
 
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