No House of Hannover

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

I’m gradually working on a TL with it’s primary POD being in the seven years war that I’m pretty sure will end up screwing Hannover by the late 1700s to early 1800s, despite this being way after the Hanoverian inheritance it made me think about alternate houses that could replace them, any alternate inheritors? Anyone that might replace them if they die out in the 1700s? How might it affect foreign and internal politics and policy?

Prince William Duke of Gloucester surviving, inheriting and founding a house is one I’ve considered but I’m unsure what that might lead too?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I’m gradually working on a TL with it’s primary POD being in the seven years war that I’m pretty sure will end up screwing Hannover by the late 1700s to early 1800s, despite this being way after the Hanoverian inheritance it made me think about alternate houses that could replace them, any alternate inheritors? Anyone that might replace them if they die out in the 1700s? How might it affect foreign and internal politics and policy?

Prince William Duke of Gloucester surviving, inheriting and founding a house is one I’ve considered but I’m unsure what that might lead too?

Are you talking aboutthem not inheriting Britain? Cause that's reasonably easy. Just have one of the 52 people AHEAD of Sophia agree to either convert or allow their kids to be raised Anglican. The prince of Salm is a possible candidate, (although AFAIK the offer was never extended to Salm) since by the WotSS his ancestral lands passed to French control. His father was advisor/tutor to Joseph I, the right POD could see things go his way in England.

As for Hannover, depending on the POD - which would have to be pretty expansive, since TWO of George I's brothers lived until the 1720s. Although another three were KIA (I think one drowned after the battle rather than he died in action per se).

But the "nearest" male-line heirs would be the Welfs of Brunswick.

 

[Jonathan]

The alternative house depends on whose dying out.
As of 8 March 1702, when Queen Anne took the throne, the line of succession looked like this:
1) Sophia, Dowager Electress of Hanover (1630-1714)
2) George Louis, Elector of Hanover (1660–1727)
3) George Augustus, Hereditary Prince of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1683-1760)
4) Christian Henry of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1671–1703) ? No real details about him
5) Ernest Augustus of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1674–1728)
6) Sophia Dorothea of Hannover (1687-1757)
7) Sophia Charlotte, Queen in Prussia (1668–1705)

If you don't want any members of the Hannover house taking the throne, you need to kill off George Augustus, die before his marriage in 1705, his father and none of his uncles, have children, Sophia Dorothea, hasn't married Crown Prince Frederick William of Prussia, heir apparent to the Prussian throne yet, so could marry an English noble to succeed peacefully

 

[wwbgdiaslt]

You seem to have Sophia Dorothea in the wrong position there, she would have been just after her brother

 

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

Are you talking aboutthem not inheriting Britain? Cause that's reasonably easy. Just have one of the 52 people AHEAD of Sophia agree to either convert or allow their kids to be raised Anglican. The prince of Salm is a possible candidate, (although AFAIK the offer was never extended to Salm) since by the WotSS his ancestral lands passed to French control. His father was advisor/tutor to Joseph I, the right POD could see things go his way in England.

As for Hannover, depending on the POD - which would have to be pretty expansive, since TWO of George I's brothers lived until the 1720s. Although another three were KIA (I think one drowned after the battle rather than he died in action per se).

But the "nearest" male-line heirs would be the Welfs of Brunswick.

Now that's an interesting slew of options, anywhere I can get a list of those 52? In terms of Hannover dying out, yeah I don't want to bother with killing them all off, too many butterflies that aren't coming from my POD, that is if the Welfs don't turn out to be interesting enough.

The alternative house depends on whose dying out.
As of 8 March 1702, when Queen Anne took the throne, the line of succession looked like this:
1) Sophia, Dowager Electress of Hanover (1630-1714)
2) George Louis, Elector of Hanover (1660–1727)
3) George Augustus, Hereditary Prince of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1683-1760)
4) Christian Henry of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1671–1703) ? No real details about him
5) Ernest Augustus of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1674–1728)
6) Sophia Dorothea of Hannover (1687-1757)
7) Sophia Charlotte, Queen in Prussia (1668–1705)

If you don't want any members of the Hannover house taking the throne, you need to kill off George Augustus, die before his marriage in 1705, his father and none of his uncles, have children, Sophia Dorothea, hasn't married Crown Prince Frederick William of Prussia, heir apparent to the Prussian throne yet, so could marry an English noble to succeed peacefully

Huh, Prussia could be interesting -I'll have to look into those options properly though.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Now that's an interesting slew of options, anywhere I can get a list of those 52?

It's more a common number I've seen cited when speaking of the Act of Settlement.
Roughly:

1. Anne Marie, duchess of Savoy
   1. Her children​
2. Elisabeth Charlotte, duchesse d'Orléans
   1. Her children​
3. Louis Otto, Prince of Salm (son of Luise Marie of the Palatinate, daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
   1. His children (three daughters)​
   2. Salm's sister, Eleonore Christine​
4. Anne Henriette of the Palatinate, Princesse de Condé (daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
   1. Her children​
5. Benedikte Henriette of the Palatinate, duchess of Brunswick-Kahlenberg (daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
6. Charlotte, duchess of Modena
   1. Her children​
7. Wilhelmine, queen of the Romans
   1. Her children​
8. Sophie of the Palatinate, Electress of Hannover
   1. George I
      

      1. His children​
   2. His brothers​
   3. Sophie Charlotte of Hannover, Queen of Prussia
      

      1. Frederick William I of Prussia​

Now, there's pretty much a POD available for several members.
1. Anne Marie d'Orléans, duchess of Savoy (someone just gag Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy when Queen Mary II dies. The English ambassador in Turin spoke to VAII that William III was interested in the option of the English crown passing to the Savoys. But William III indicated he needed "proof of loyalty" (not unthinkable, VAII was called "Duke in Both Boots" for a reason). VAII laughed at the ambassador and said William III would get no proof of loyalty, since his children would wear the English crown regardless (this was pre-Act of Settlement). Her daughter, Adélaïde (mother of Louis XV) was very interested in what was going on in English affairs according to her letters and things she said to various members of the court at Versailles.
2. Elisabeth Charlotte 'Liselotte' is unlikely to have been interested in the crown of England (if it came with parliamentary strings attached) - her letters indicate as much. She regarded the English parliament as the most untrustworthy institution around after they chased out James II. It had little t odo with personal preference for James II, but perhaps had to do with not being want to be seen to be "like her dad" (who had fished for the English crown during the Civil War and earned the dislike of Charles I, Charles II and James II as a result).
3. Prince Louis Otto of Salm, as I say, I've never come across anything that suggests that the crown was offered to him.
4. Anne Henriette of the Palatinate was likely not offered the crown for the same reason as Liselotte and Liselotte's kids (seen as too French). And I doubt Louis XIV would allow them to convert with the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in the last two decades.
5. Benedikte and her kids (same as Salm, have never read that the crown was offered to them)
6. Sophie of the Palatinate. Surprisingly, she dithered when William III offered her the crown. More than once. She was in correspondance with James II up until 1695 or 1696 IIRC. She's the one that suggested William III "adopt" James Francis Edward Stuart as his heir. William did so, James II refused. Sophie still delayed (even though both her husband and her son were urging her to accept; as was Eleonore Desmier d'Olbreuse, whose daughter was married to George I and then imprisoned at Ahlden. Eleonore was making encouraging noises to William III to adopt Sophie or George I in the hope that being the future queen of England would get Sophie-Dorothea of Celle sprung from Ahlden. It didn't).
7. Sophie Charlotte of Hannover, Queen of Prussia. William III summoned she, Frederick William I, and Sophie of Hannover to Het Loo in 1699 (I think, could've been earlier or later). And gave Sophie of Hannover an ultimatum. Either she give him a clear "yes or no", or he'd skip Sophie over and designate Sophie Charlotte and the Hohenzollerns as his heirs not just in the Netherlands but in England as well. It caused a massive panic in both Hannover (according to Sophie's librarian, Leibniz) and Vienna at the thought of a "triple crown" (it's thought that this offer played a role behind Leopold I's grudging consent of a royal crown to the Hohenzollerns in 1700)

 

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

It's more a common number I've seen cited when speaking of the Act of Settlement.
Roughly:

1. Anne Marie, duchess of Savoy
   1. Her children​
2. Elisabeth Charlotte, duchesse d'Orléans
   1. Her children​
3. Louis Otto, Prince of Salm (son of Luise Marie of the Palatinate, daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
   1. His children (three daughters)​
   2. Salm's sister, Eleonore Christine​
4. Anne Henriette of the Palatinate, Princesse de Condé (daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
   1. Her children​
5. Benedikte Henriette of the Palatinate, duchess of Brunswick-Kahlenberg (daughter of Eduard, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Anna Gonzaga)
6. Charlotte, duchess of Modena
   1. Her children​
7. Wilhelmine, queen of the Romans
   1. Her children​
8. Sophie of the Palatinate, Electress of Hannover
   1. George I​
      1. His children​
   2. 
      
   3. His brothers​
   4. Sophie Charlotte of Hannover, Queen of Prussia​
      1. Frederick William I of Prussia​

Now, there's pretty much a POD available for several members.
1. Anne Marie d'Orléans, duchess of Savoy (someone just gag Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy when Queen Mary II dies. The English ambassador in Turin spoke to VAII that William III was interested in the option of the English crown passing to the Savoys. But William III indicated he needed "proof of loyalty" (not unthinkable, VAII was called "Duke in Both Boots" for a reason). VAII laughed at the ambassador and said William III would get no proof of loyalty, since his children would wear the English crown regardless (this was pre-Act of Settlement). Her daughter, Adélaïde (mother of Louis XV) was very interested in what was going on in English affairs according to her letters and things she said to various members of the court at Versailles.
2. Elisabeth Charlotte 'Liselotte' is unlikely to have been interested in the crown of England (if it came with parliamentary strings attached) - her letters indicate as much. She regarded the English parliament as the most untrustworthy institution around after they chased out James II. It had little t odo with personal preference for James II, but perhaps had to do with not being want to be seen to be "like her dad" (who had fished for the English crown during the Civil War and earned the dislike of Charles I, Charles II and James II as a result).
3. Prince Louis Otto of Salm, as I say, I've never come across anything that suggests that the crown was offered to him.
4. Anne Henriette of the Palatinate was likely not offered the crown for the same reason as Liselotte and Liselotte's kids (seen as too French). And I doubt Louis XIV would allow them to convert with the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in the last two decades.
5. Benedikte and her kids (same as Salm, have never read that the crown was offered to them)
6. Sophie of the Palatinate. Surprisingly, she dithered when William III offered her the crown. More than once. She was in correspondence with James II up until 1695 or 1696 IIRC. She's the one that suggested William III "adopt" James Francis Edward Stuart as his heir. William did so, James II refused. Sophie still delayed (even though both her husband and her son were urging her to accept; as was Eleonore Desmier d'Olbreuse, whose daughter was married to George I and then imprisoned at Ahlden. Eleonore was making encouraging noises to William III to adopt Sophie or George I in the hope that being the future queen of England would get Sophie-Dorothea of Celle sprung from Ahlden. It didn't).
7. Sophie Charlotte of Hannover, Queen of Prussia. William III summoned she, Frederick William I, and Sophie of Hannover to Het Loo in 1699 (I think, could've been earlier or later). And gave Sophie of Hannover an ultimatum. Either she give him a clear "yes or no", or he'd skip Sophie over and designate Sophie Charlotte and the Hohenzollerns as his heirs not just in the Netherlands but in England as well. It caused a massive panic in both Hannover (according to Sophie's librarian, Leibniz) and Vienna at the thought of a "triple crown" (it's thought that this offer played a role behind Leopold I's grudging consent of a royal crown to the Hohenzollerns in 1700)

Huh, the idea of the triple monarchy is certainly interesting but it'd probably end up radically changing the seven years war and I'm not sure how so, I could probably just have the Netherlands play the exact same role as Hanover but that honestly feels cheap, any immediate butterflies or affects you can think of?

The idea of Sophie of the Palatinate inheriting the throne due to an earlier death of Anne, only to die after a brief reign, feels fairly interesting but it probably wouldn't change anything major would it?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Huh, the idea of the triple monarchy is certainly interesting but it'd probably end up radically changing the seven years war and I'm not sure how so, I could probably just have the Netherlands play the exact same role as Hanover but that honestly feels cheap, any immediate butterflies or affects you can think of?

There's no proof that the Dutch would've accepted Friedrich Wilhelm as ruler. There was a stadtholderless period post-William III for a reason, not to mention, he was a foreigner and the Dutch were even more xenophobic about being ruled by a foreigner than the English were.

The idea of Sophie of the Palatinate inheriting the throne due to an earlier death of Anne, only to die after a brief reign, feels fairly interesting but it probably wouldn't change anything major would it?

It wasn't that she'd succeed William directly (the duke of Gloucester was still alive at the time of the conversation in question) but rather that she'd be at the front of the queue of "next in lines" for if Anne and Gloucester were to die without issue

 

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

There's no proof that the Dutch would've accepted Friedrich Wilhelm as ruler. There was a stadtholderless period post-William III for a reason, not to mention, he was a foreigner and the Dutch were even more xenophobic about being ruled by a foreigner than the English were.

Hm, so the Dutch would refuse the offer but might it be possible for it to be amended as being between just Prussia and Britain?

It wasn't that she'd succeed William directly (the duke of Gloucester was still alive at the time of the conversation in question) but rather that she'd be at the front of the queue of "next in lines" for if Anne and Gloucester were to die without issue

I see, but still my logic applies doesn't it? Their deaths would probably wouldn't change that much and the succession doesn't end up changing much beyond being a more certain matter.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Hm, so the Dutch would refuse the offer but might it be possible for it to be amended as being between just Prussia and Britain?

It's possible. Friedrich Wilhelm went on claiming the title of prince of Orange until the 1730s IIRC @Parma @pompejus

I see, but still my logic applies doesn't it? Their deaths would probably wouldn't change that much and the succession doesn't end up changing much beyond being a more certain matter.

Pretty much. Unless Anne were to die in childbirth or something ahead of William

 

[pompejus]

It's possible. Friedrich Wilhelm went on claiming the title of prince of Orange until the 1730s IIRC @Parma @pompejus

If we look at blood relations Friedrich Wilhelm was closer related to William III than Johan Willem Friso, but Johan Willem Friso was appointed by Willem III to succeed him as stadholder of Holland, Zeeland, etc. While Friedrich Wilhelm inherited the non-Dutch titles, like countof Lingen and Moers. There was discussion about the title of Orange, but in the end they agreed to share the title. Also the kinf of France got that title since the French had actualy conquered the principality of Orange.

 

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

From what I'm seeing I've got two options that appeal to me:
1. I keep the Hanovers and then screw with it's members further down the line to make it more interesting.
2. Have the Hohenzollerns win the throne and then deal with the repercussions; would it allow an Anglo-German alliance to persist? Would the personal union persist or would it split into two branches for each state? Would it butterfly or influence German Unification? Could it lead to Britain getting involved in the Napoleonic wars earlier as Prussia did (I think"? All interesting things to explore.
3. Maybe have Prince William Duke of Gloucester survive and succeed in having children and founding a long lasting family, in this case I'm not really sure of the results? I could have the Dutch parrelel Hanover in the Seven Years War, but then again that seems lazy.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

From what I'm seeing I've got two options that appeal to me:
1. I keep the Hanovers and then screw with it's members further down the line to make it more interesting.

Funny idea would be what was done a few years ago, where George II died before fathering kids. Maximilian Wilhelm (who was Catholic) and Ernst Augustus both obliged to get married as a result.

2. Have the Hohenzollerns win the throne and then deal with the repercussions; would it allow an Anglo-German alliance to persist? Would the personal union persist or would it split into two branches for each state? Would it butterfly or influence German Unification? Could it lead to Britain getting involved in the Napoleonic wars earlier as Prussia did (I think"? All interesting things to explore.

Steady the buffs. This is 1700, Napoléon's paternal grandfather was only born in 1713, his mother's father only in 1723, so let's not get overly carried away. Lots of things can change with regards to France (1711-1712 is the big doozy where Louis XV lost mother, father, elder brother and grandfather all in the space of a year).

3. Maybe have Prince William Duke of Gloucester survive and succeed in having children and founding a long lasting family, in this case I'm not really sure of the results? I could have the Dutch parrelel Hanover in the Seven Years War, but then again that seems lazy.

William wouldn't inherit the Netherlands when his uncle dies. And as has been pointed out in several threads before, you'd possibly be ending up with an English Carlos II. He'd need to not get the meningitis as a child (or avoid being born with hydrocephaly). So that might necessitate a POD way back in the 1680s which can change stuff even more.

 

[iPolytheistic_tsar]

Funny idea would be what was done a few years ago, where George II died before fathering kids. Maximilian Wilhelm (who was Catholic) and Ernst Augustus both obliged to get married as a result.

Pretty intriguing.

Steady the buffs. This is 1700, Napoléon's paternal grandfather was only born in 1713, his mother's father only in 1723, so let's not get overly carried away. Lots of things can change with regards to France (1711-1712 is the big doozy where Louis XV lost mother, father, elder brother and grandfather all in the space of a year).

Bear in mind this isn't my POD, that comes later, so I'm perfectly willing to stall or restrain butterflies to prevent this taking over as the POD... Additionally I was using "Napoleonic Wars" as something that includes the French Revolution, to which I was talking about how Britain only joined after Louis was executed, rather than joining Prussia and Austria at the start, here if Britain and Prussia have an even closer relationship then Britain may join with Prussia off the bat or be amongst those declared war on by France.

William wouldn't inherit the Netherlands when his uncle dies. And as has been pointed out in several threads before, you'd possibly be ending up with an English Carlos II. He'd need to not get the meningitis as a child (or avoid being born with hydrocephaly). So that might necessitate a POD way back in the 1680s which can change stuff even more.

One again, butterfly net in hand, however that could be pretty interesting as a separate TL looking at how Britain would act in the Seven Years war without any presence in mainland Europe.