no holocaust?

Rarename91

Banned
If there was no holocaust or anti jewish law and instead hitler gather support from the jews how would this effect the nazi party performance in election and how would it effect the war as well?
 
If there was no holocaust or anti jewish law and instead hitler gather support from the jews how would this effect the nazi party performance in election and how would it effect the war as well?

Well a lot of people think antisemitism can't be removed from Nazism, I disagree, we could easily have a Nazism movement who have all it's Lebensraum and make Germany great again attitude, but wasn't ideological antisemitic. The result would likely have been that German/Yiddish speaking Jews outside Germany would be seen as a kind of Volkdeutsche. Economic it mean that Germany have fewer resources to plundered at home before the war, but I doubt it really made a big difference. What really mane a difference are that there will be large number of Jews in Eastern Europe which can be recruited into the German army. USSR will likely deport it Jewish population to Siberia together with its German minorities, while if Germany still lose, the Jews will join the other Volkdeutsche in fleeing the Red Army.
 
Well a lot of people think antisemitism can't be removed from Nazism, I disagree, we could easily have a Nazism movement who have all it's Lebensraum and make Germany great again attitude, but wasn't ideological antisemitic. The result would likely have been that German/Yiddish speaking Jews outside Germany would be seen as a kind of Volkdeutsche. Economic it mean that Germany have fewer resources to plundered at home before the war, but I doubt it really made a big difference. What really mane a difference are that there will be large number of Jews in Eastern Europe which can be recruited into the German army. USSR will likely deport it Jewish population to Siberia together with its German minorities, while if Germany still lose, the Jews will join the other Volkdeutsche in fleeing the Red Army.

Nazism requires the hate of a foreign and domestic untermensch to rally the masses against. If not Judeo-Bolsheviks then who?
 
Nazism requires the hate of a foreign and domestic untermensch to rally the masses against. If not Judeo-Bolsheviks then who?

The Bolsheviks of course. I think when we scale nazism down to the fundamentals, it was about Making Germany Great Again, get Lebensraum and give Germany dominance over the European continent, everything else was secondary to these goals, and so I think anything not part if these three point could be dropped and Nazism would still be recognizable.
 
Well a lot of people think antisemitism can't be removed from Nazism, I disagree, we could easily have a Nazism movement who have all it's Lebensraum and make Germany great again attitude, but wasn't ideological antisemitic.

There cannot be a Nazi movement with the critical mass without antisemitism. That was what kept the party together long enough for Adolf to grab power.
 
From the NSDAP platform, the 25-point plan, which Hitler never changed:
4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently, no Jew can be a member of the race.
4. Staatsbürger kann nur sein, wer Volksgenosse ist. Volksgenosse kann nur sein, wer deutschen Blutes ist, ohne Rücksichtnahme auf Konfession. Kein Jude kann daher Volksgenosse sein.

Granted, the NSDAP did not actually put their whole platform into practice when they took power, but there isn't a word about communism in the platform. If you scale Nazism down to its essentials, antisemitism is there as an inalienable part of their form of German nationalism. It would take a very different Hitler, an unrecognizable character, to lead a party that hated communism but not Jews. Hitler claimed that he became an antisemite in Vienna -- before the Russian revolution and before World War I.
 
There cannot be a Nazi movement with the critical mass without antisemitism. That was what kept the party together long enough for Adolf to grab power.

I think because of the hindsight of the Nazi actions (Krystalnacht and the Holocaust) we overestimate the importance of Antisemitism earlier for the party. The Jews was a useful scapegoat, but the Nazi could have found other scapegoats instead for the stab in the back myth.

As for his to make Hitler less antisemitic, let him serve on the East Front instead. I think if the main pro-German civilian he could interact with had been the local Jewish populations some of his Vienna antisemitism could have disappeared, and he would have ended up seeing Ashkenazi as a kind semi-Germans.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well a lot of people think antisemitism can't be removed from Nazism, I disagree, we could easily have a Nazism movement who have all it's Lebensraum and make Germany great again attitude, but wasn't ideological antisemitic. The result would likely have been that German/Yiddish speaking Jews outside Germany would be seen as a kind of Volkdeutsche. Economic it mean that Germany have fewer resources to plundered at home before the war, but I doubt it really made a big difference. What really mane a difference are that there will be large number of Jews in Eastern Europe which can be recruited into the German army. USSR will likely deport it Jewish population to Siberia together with its German minorities, while if Germany still lose, the Jews will join the other Volkdeutsche in fleeing the Red Army.
For the record, the Nazis' anti-Semitism does appear to have given the Nazis some electoral gains:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=223781&p=2039271&hilit=judeophilic#p2039271

"the "Sklarek Scandal" bolstered prejudice in many ways: The Sklareks were Jews, Leo and Willy Sklarek had been members of the Social-Democratic Party (SPD) since 1928, Max Sklarek was a member of the Deutsche Demokratische Panel, (German Democratic Party/DDP), the K.V.G. had donated clothing to the Rote Hilfe ['Red Aid', a political aid agency affiliated with the Communist Party], the brothers had donated funds to the DNVP and were also friends with the German-nationalist publisher and professional anti-Semite Wilhelm Bruhn (indisputably the most unexpected surprise that came to light)."

The Sklareks had bribed Nationalist as well as Communist city Councillors, donated money to the SPD and DDP, had expensive clothes manufactured and sent to influential friends for ridiculously low prices or "forgotten" about the bill completely.
Even the wife of Berlin's Lord Mayor [...] had received a luxury fur coat for less than a third of its actual worth. He was immediately accused of corruption and although he did everything in his power (from paying the real price to clearing up every detail of the affair) he still had to resign from office.'

With the municipal elections in Berlin only one month ahead, the Nazis based their whole electoral campaign in 1929 on the "Sklarek Scandal."This approach never changed, and even served as a justification for the Nazis' anti-Jewish policy after 1933 : "It must be demonstrated that the cunning of those Galician traffickers embroiled unprincipled Marxist leaders in scandals.""
Painting themselves as the only alternative to the "Barmat block" did not fail: The NSDAP won 5.8 per cent of the vote and for the first time, a Nazi-faction entered the Stadtverordnetenversammlung [Berlin's municipal parliament]."

However, I do agree with you that Hitler could have drawn a distinction between good Jews and bad Jews just like he drew a distinction between good Germans and bad Germans; I mean, if Winston Churchill was able to do this, why not Hitler? :

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism

I think because of the hindsight of the Nazi actions (Krystalnacht and the Holocaust) we overestimate the importance of Antisemitism earlier for the party. The Jews was a useful scapegoat, but the Nazi could have found other scapegoats instead for the stab in the back myth.

As for his to make Hitler less antisemitic, let him serve on the East Front instead. I think if the main pro-German civilian he could interact with had been the local Jewish populations some of his Vienna antisemitism could have disappeared, and he would have ended up seeing Ashkenazi as a kind semi-Germans.

Perhaps having a Jewish soldier save his life would be more effective, no?

Also, didn't Rudolf Hess serve on the Eastern Front and yet still ended up an anti-Semite?
 
I think because of the hindsight of the Nazi actions (Krystalnacht and the Holocaust) we overestimate the importance of Antisemitism earlier for the party. The Jews was a useful scapegoat, but the Nazi could have found other scapegoats instead for the stab in the back myth.

It's not mere hindsight. Adolf deliberately pushed for Jew blaming when it gained him support within the party. This could be tracked in what he emphasized in his speeches to party members. Antisemitism was fundamental in Adolf gaining and retaining power and unity, so to butterfly that away would mean Adolf would not have the political clout to gain attention.
 
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