No holocaust, what are the effects?

Lets say, the Nazi's don't go that far to genocide the Jews but rather deports them to Belarus or whatsoever or uses them as forced labour in the industry only. They still surrender in 1945.

What will the results be?
- Creation of Israel? Still happens? If so, still in Palestine? Or any place in Eastern Europe (East Prussia)?
- Punishment of Germany. Will it still be like OTL?
- Will Germany have revanchist feelings?
- Will the Jews still move back to their homes in Europe?
 

nbcman

Donor
There won't be a difference as there is insufficient food to feed the Jews and others. People will starve to death from hunger and it won't be the Germans who will be starving.

From a previous post of mine in a locked thread
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So you are replacing the industrialized Death Camps with people indiscriminately starving to death especially in the East? Seems to me that your Notzis are still Nazis as they are still killing people, just in a slower manner. IOTL, the Germans plundered food from across Europe to feed Germany and where the Germans and killed hundreds of thousands of 'undesirables'. If those additional people are still there, either the Germans are going hungry (Hitler feared an uprising similar to the end of WW1, so that's out) or thousands of people outside of Germany are going to starve to death because there are not enough calories of food available to feed everyone in Occupied Europe. More slave labor won't help because there isn't enough food to keep the slaves going nor are there enough Germans and Hiwis to guard the millions of slaves who would be alive.

EDIT: See the Hunger Plan and the German's conclusions:

1.) The war can only be continued if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year of the war.

2.) If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that tens of millions of people will die of starvation

In the discussion of the plan, Backe noted a "surplus population" in Russia of about 20 to 30 million. If that population was cut off from food, that food could be used to feed both the invading German Army and the German population itself.
So the Germans in your timeline are starving tens of millions of people but there isn't a 'Holocaust'. It is a distinction without a difference.
 
I don't know if it would be "horrifying" enough for there to be broad international support for an official Jewish state directly post-war. The Nazis would still be rightfully put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity (as @nbcman explains) and the British would likely open up the Mandate of Palestine to more Jewish immigration (and a de facto Jewish state might exist), but the Allies might try to kick the can down the road on making it official. It would likely be compared to the Holodomor or the famines of the British Raj as being "par for the course" as far as disgusting failures of humanity go.

However, the Zionist Movement would definitely gain steam and push for legitimacy, which they would probably get, as Nazi war crimes become more apparent over the following years rather than it being "just another case of mass starvation." You might end up with an Israel/Palestine that looks like OTL Lebanon, with broad but relatively peaceful religious splits.
 
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The Holocaust wasn't just about the Jews. They were just the most numerous and arguably the most sympathetic group of victims. You also had all the gypsies, the gays, the disabled, the political enemies, a large number of other small groups and of course the millions of Slavic POW and civilians who were killed.

Many of these groups were not particularly popular, so Nazi Germany may have gotten away with massacring large numbers of them without too much reproach. Eugenics and bad treatment of homosexuals were not something the Allies disapproved of too much at the time. And while the Russian were upset about that whole killing millions of Slavs thing and the persecution of communist and stuff like that, this would have been seen considerably less badly in the west.

On the other hand there is the idea that the fate of Germany after WWII was not so much motivated as justified by the holocaust. A final solution to prevent Germany from rising up again might have been found anyway and justified by other means even without the killing of millions of innocents.

Things like the creation of Israel would depend on what happened to the Jews in europe instead of being killed en masse in death camps.

If they mostly survived and ended up as refugees in places outside of Nazi control like the UK and the US that would have led to a huge upswing of antisemitism in those places. If they were herded east and killed by the Soviets instead that would have let to an upswing of anti-communist thought amongst the Jews in the world.

If by some strange butterflies Soviet Russia decides to get them all out of the way into the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east that would have resulted in some strange butterflies in regards to Israel and the whole future of geopolitics.

But generally and change to make the murder of 6 million Jews not have happened would have so many so far reaching consequences that it would be hard to say anything at all about such a timeline without making a whole lot of stuff up.
 
I you look at the death rates in the various ghettos the Germans established in Eastern Europe, and places like Theriesenstadt which was essentially a ghetto, you would have had massive numbers of deaths even had there been no death camps. Add deporting large numbers of Jews from other parts of occupied Europe to the General Government or other places, more deaths. Use Jews for forced labor in bad conditions more deaths. Of course at the same time Jews are robbed of all property. This is just by the Nazis.

Unfortunately in many countries either occupied by the Nazis or allied with them, various severe measures including murder, ghettoization, theft of property occurred as well. In many concentration camps and ghettos "locals" were auxiliary guards. OTL when the relatively few survivors, when they returned home, were often murdered or basically driven away. Here you will have not as many deaths, although even absent death camps the number of Jews who die will be in the millions. Now you will have a high percentage of those who survive who don't want to return to the town where their neighbors turned them in and looted their house, or where their house/property was seized and won't be returned to them, or where their erstwhile neighbors will attack them. On top of that, many of the countries they came from are now occupied by the USSR which is yet another reason not to return.

You will now have a huge DP problem with Jews in Europe and much more pressure on the British to allow immigration.
 
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