No Hitler - No Israel? Anti -Antisemitism is not consider a bad thing?

The rise of Fascism in Germany was inivetiable because of the post WWI conditions of Germany made it ripe for it. If it wasn't Hitler it would be someone else and the nazi party would just have a different name but it probably wouldn't be all that different in terms of ideology.
 
The rise of Fascism in Germany was inivetiable because of the post WWI conditions of Germany made it ripe for it. If it wasn't Hitler it would be someone else and the nazi party would just have a different name but it probably wouldn't be all that different in terms of ideology.

Nope, and that was debunked a hell lot often. It needed a depression, the split on the left, the old conserative elites and the Reichswehr siding with the Nazi movement and lot of desperate protest voters and outright terror to destroy the Weimar democracy. And even than Hitlers movement couldnt muster enough votes for a majority win.
So no, the Nazi movement was not Germany destiny in the 30ies. It is a kind of a irony that the Nazis are today considered wrong on nearly every topic. But when it comes to the rise of the movement people seem to forget that the Nazis always told this kind of propaganda:"We are Germanys destiny!" :rolleyes:
It needed specific circumstances in the post ww1 time for the rise of the NSDAP and Hitler. And dont forget: The 30ies brought the end for nearly every democracy in Central and Eastern Europe. And in France and (less) GB the times where although not so shiny. An authorian regime was possible, the Nazi power seizure of power not so. Otherwise the Weimar democracy would not have lasted for so long and Hitler would not had so much problems in creating his dystopia.
 
Gotta agree with MrHaakwood. Just because the time was ripe for Hitler/Nazism, doesn't mean that such a philosophy was inevitable. I think it took the warped depravity of Hitler and his cronies to allow those who thought like him to come out of the woodwork. Get rid of the charismatic Hitler, and his cronies may not come to power, and those who think like them remain in the shadows. Plus, you have to remember that Hitler, at several occasions, said 'nein, I am not going to do what is rational'. Sometimes he pushed it and won. Ultimately he pushed it too far and lost. Get rid of Hitler, and you might have the usual state of affairs: leaders without the will to push it to the limit. Thus, WW2 could have a lot of causes, but it's not inevitable.
 
Even after WW2 antisemitism was very prevalent - not just in Eastern Europe of Moslem countries. For example, in the USA it was not until the early 1960s, and at least partially as a result of various civil rights laws that were primarily due to black protests, that overt antisemitic practices were (more or less) ended in the USA. These included very upfront quotas for Jews at many major universities and graduate/professional programs, "restricted" resorts/hotels/communities (no Jews allowed), and various companies that refused to hire Jews. This sort of thing was common in Western Europe as well.

All of this was after antisemitism "discredited" by the actions of the Nazis. IMHO absent such "discredit" you see post 1945 antisemitism at the level of the 1930s with little or no decrease for much longer, perhaps to the present. In countries occupied OTL where Jewish populations were wiped out may see an increase in antisemitism as there are many more Jews in those countries.

BTW the Balfour Declaration was done for a number of reasons, but one of them was to garner support from the worldwide Jewish community which would then be more inclined to advance loans to the UK which at that time was desperately short of cash.
 
Zionism in its modern form dates to the 1880s. Israel would likely still have been created

That's begging the question.

and then a mass of surviving jews persecuted in russia would have done much to improve the demographic situation of Israel.

Except that with the Bolshevik Revolution, the anti-Jewish laws of Imperial Russia were entirely swept away. Russian Jewry flourished in the opening years of the USSR. Religious Judaism was repressed, but the laws and prejudices which had barred Jews from the universities and professions, from political office, and even from residing in large areas were all removed.

There was a covert revival of anti-semitism after World War II, but it was never explicit, and never close to the virulence of the Tsarist era, with its Black Hundreds and "blood libel" trials.

Jewish emigration from the USSR in the 1970s and later had less to do with anti-semitism in the USSR than the general desire of most people in the USSR to get out from under Communism, which was oppressive and discredited. (Nobody admitted it in public until Gorbachev's glasnost, but everyone knew it.)
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Without the Nazi experience all kinds of Racism would be seen as more legit. Doesn't mean everyone would be a racist, and especially the Left would be openly against it. But Nationalist Parties would in such scenario be able to express their Racism and Anti- Semitism much more in the open.
 
Without the Nazi experience all kinds of Racism would be seen as more legit. Doesn't mean everyone would be a racist, and especially the Left would be openly against it. But Nationalist Parties would in such scenario be able to express their Racism and Anti- Semitism much more in the open.

Some of todays left are the most rabid antisemites.
 

nooblet

Banned
Without the Nazi experience all kinds of Racism would be seen as more legit. Doesn't mean everyone would be a racist, and especially the Left would be openly against it. But Nationalist Parties would in such scenario be able to express their Racism and Anti- Semitism much more in the open.

To be honest - and I'm not accusing you of doing this deliberately - this strikes me as stemming from a paternalistic "be grateful we gave you civil rights" attitude, that is prevalent in the American discourse on race issues. As some people mentioned, there was (and still is) institutionalized forms of racism after 1945.

There isn't anything that's suppressing a racist platform for an American politician, other than it being an untenable and extremely unpopular position to make into government policy. It was also a great and pointless burden just for logistical reasons, like segregation in the armed forces. (I'm wondering now that if WW2 didn't happen, would the American armed forces stopped racial segregation in their units?)
 
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