No Hitler, Communist Germany. A different WW2

Apologies for posting what's probably an old concept (the search function is timing out for me) but has anyone ever discussed a TL where Weimar Germany falls to communism in the 1930s. Was playing devil's advocate (literally) for Hitler yesterday and the only decent thing I could think of was "saving Germany from communism". Is this realistic?

Even if not, obviously this would have changed the balance of WW2, e.g. the Anschluss would either be replaced by an invasion or would never happen. There'd be no willing and loyal Germans in Czechoslovakia and the Spanish Civil War would obviously have been different. Mussolini (and fascism) would be perceived in a whole different way for certain.

Was thinking it might be a nice starting place for a go at fiction.
 
Before the reply, I just have to say that my understanding of Weimar politics is, at best, limited. I have a general overview, but there are posters on these boards a great deal more knowledgeable than I.

Therefore, please take everything written below with a grain of salt. I'm somewhat outside my comfort zone here.

Apologies for posting what's probably an old concept (the search function is timing out for me) but has anyone ever discussed a TL where Weimar Germany falls to communism in the 1930s. Was playing devil's advocate (literally) for Hitler yesterday and the only decent thing I could think of was "saving Germany from communism". Is this realistic?

Not really, by the time Hitler rose to power communism in Germany was pretty much dead. Past the initial, chaotic, years following Versailles, there wasn't really a danger of Germany ever going communist.

Could it have ended up communist? Yes, but if it did, it would've happened long before Hitler became anyone of importance. By the time Hitler and the NSDAP came to prominence, the communists' chance had come and gone.

If you want to say something positive, say Hitler was against public smoking and banned medical experiments on animals (which he considered too cruel). :rolleyes:

Even if not, obviously this would have changed the balance of WW2, e.g. the Anschluss would either be replaced by an invasion or would never happen. There'd be no willing and loyal Germans in Czechoslovakia and the Spanish Civil War would obviously have been different. Mussolini (and fascism) would be perceived in a whole different way for certain.

Anschluss as such wouldn't happen, no. You can say many things about the Austrian fascists, but friendly to communism they weren't. Same thing for Italy, France, Britain, Poland and just about anyone else. A communist Germany would have no shortage of enemies and precious few friends.

If you get a World War 2, then it's possible you end up with a German-Soviet alliance, as two communist states (even if pursuing different branches of ideology). There's simply no way for a communist state to work with anyone except another communist state at the period (Sino-Soviet cooperation excluded) ... too many nations were hostile to the ideology. Besides, Germany and the Soviets got pretty chummy OTL, with an ideology more in line with proper communist thought, I don't see why an alliance would be out of the question (and, possibly, a restoration of pre-WWI borders between the two states).

Was thinking it might be a nice starting place for a go at fiction.

That it would be. Then again, I'm not one to speak, I don't have a single time-line to my name. :eek:
 
Uh Keb, in regards to your point on communist states and non-communist states, you do know the Soviets had very strong relations with Weimar Germany right?

It's all about having friends to play with you in the sandbox when the other kids didn't want to play with you, so pick whoever will do it, Weimar Germany and the Soviets found each other.

Hell, the Soviets did a pretty successful repproachment with the West in the Interwar era, Stalin was clever, he knew how to play to Western apathy and other things to find at least an agreement to coexist with the West.
 
Uh Keb, in regards to your point on communist states and non-communist states, you do know the Soviets had very strong relations with Weimar Germany right?

Yes, I do believe I've mentioned the German-Soviet cooperation, if only obliquely in my earlier reply. I'm also aware of how far it went in allowing the Reichwehr to rebuild.

I'm just saying, OTL Germany was mistrusted. An ATL red Germany is going to be even worse off. Not only are they the Hun, they're also communists, it's like the worst possible combination to nations that were already paranoid about the threat of communism OTL (though at least it'll make Churchill's job easier, he won't have to rant about communists and Germans as separate topics, he'll be able to talk about German communists). They'd have even fewer choices than OTL regarding friends, with the Soviet Union coming out on top of a very short list.
 
If it wasn't for the Soviet Union, the Reichswehr wouldn't have been more than a genderarmie instead a force that had capable commanders. And the only way the Communists take power in Germany is through a military coup.
 
There is a massive difficulty in having the Communists overthrow Weimar Germany because the balance of military power is so weighted against them. Apart from their own fighters you can rely upon everyone from the Reichsbanner to the Brownshirts to turn against them - even in the unlikely event that the Reichsbanner fights on the Communist side (given how much the SDs hated the Communists) the right wing paramilitaries plus the Reichswehr are more than capable of giving the Reds a very bloody nose indeed. And, as shown by OTL's events, there are not going to be too many on the right who will stand by and play by the constitutional rulebook in the unlikely event that the Communists gain a plurality of seats in the Reichstag.

If Hitler doesn't come to power the most likely result is an authoritarian government spanning from the Centre Party to the DNVP and including senior military figures - rather like the Bruning or Papen administrations but without the figleaf of democratic approval that the former, at least, had.
 
There is a massive difficulty in having the Communists overthrow Weimar Germany because the balance of military power is so weighted against them. Apart from their own fighters you can rely upon everyone from the Reichsbanner to the Brownshirts to turn against them - even in the unlikely event that the Reichsbanner fights on the Communist side (given how much the SDs hated the Communists) the right wing paramilitaries plus the Reichswehr are more than capable of giving the Reds a very bloody nose indeed. And, as shown by OTL's events, there are not going to be too many on the right who will stand by and play by the constitutional rulebook in the unlikely event that the Communists gain a plurality of seats in the Reichstag.

If Hitler doesn't come to power the most likely result is an authoritarian government spanning from the Centre Party to the DNVP and including senior military figures - rather like the Bruning or Papen administrations but without the figleaf of democratic approval that the former, at least, had.
Exactly my point. Communist Germany is ASB unless you have a POD in the 1840's.
 
If Hitler doesn't come to power the most likely result is an authoritarian government spanning from the Centre Party to the DNVP and including senior military figures - rather like the Bruning or Papen administrations but without the figleaf of democratic approval that the former, at least, had.

You should check out my Timeline, Dead By Dawn. Its about a Germany where Hitler dies in the Beer Hall putsch.
 
Exactly my point. Communist Germany is ASB unless you have a POD in the 1840's.

How certain are you of this? Hitler's popularity had been establishing itself since the putsch and this made him a credible alternative to the government. How many of his supporters were committed fascists and how many were just angry young men from the street who saw how badly things were going - and would have responded to any voice that offered an alternative.

I agree you have a lot of systems in place that would make democratic transfer of power impossible - and even capable of stopping it if democratically elected.

I suppose this is covered by the AHs I vaguely remember seeing about a German civil war - most of which begin around 1918. This almost defeats the point of the thread - playing Devil's Advocate for Hitler.

Oh well, I heard he was a vegetarian. And there's the old joke - Hitler can't be all bad. After all, he killed Hitler.
 
Without having any research done, I feel this would be rather tricky timeline to write. Interesting though. And yes, it seems a bit ASBish. If it ever were to come to pass, it might end up the same as Bele Kunas Hungary Commie regime. But who knows. I might, once I finish my current timeline try to tackle this.
 
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