No Haig

Yes one of the reasons Germany's spring offensive failed was that the attacking German units stopped to loot British supply depots. Not just for drink, but also decent food and boots. The contents of those depots also played a large part in convincing the ordinary German soldier that the war could not be won. It made the effects of the British blockade readily apparent as well as the ineffectiveness of the German Navy's submarine blockade. Their families at home were starving while the Allied troops were recieving luxuries that Germans hadn't seen since the outbreak of the war.


As for General Haig we have to remember what his men thought of him, not just the politicians and historians. His reportedly thought the world of him. They certainly turned out in their thousands when he died. Haig is also portrayed as a heartless butcher. Next rememberance day (if you're in Britain) buy a poppy and look at the black center. You'll find the words Haig Fund. His effort post war to assist the veterens is still doing it's job 98 years after the start of the Great War, this was not the action of a heartless brute. Haig, Jellico and Foch were the men that won the Great War and their portrayal as incompetants, butchers or both is completely unfounded. They made mistakes yes but they were facing a conflict unlike any they had trained for and had to learn on the job.

Without labouring the point it's also important to remember that Britain was alone among the major powers in not having compulsory military service prior to the war. Most French and Germans had done some military service before the war.

Also their senior generals were expected to command large formations in wartime. No British general had this experience.

Most junior British officers by 1916 were university graduates and white collar professionals who had no military training before August 1914.

What you had were generals from the fairly small professional army trying to organize a large enthusiastic crowd of amateurs into a fighting force capable of taking on a war machine that had been training and rehearsing for a full scale European War for 40 years.

Finally it's often forgotten that 78 British generals were killed in the war so the image of a Lord Meltchett sitting in his chateau is not entirely accurate. Also most British generals had seen combat before 1914 whereas hardly any Germans had experienced a battle. Haig, French, Kitchener etc had all been in battle and knew what fighting was like even if they hadn't seen anything like a WW1.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Lets imagine Gen Douglas Haig doesn't authorized the disasterous Somme Campaign that wiped out the best and brightest soldiers from the British Units. I think with those soldiers who were saved from a certain death, Britain could have continued their tank program unimpeded and launced a campaign in 1917 or even 1918 with tanks used as shields to screen Allied advances. How does keeping the cream of the crop alive affect the BEF's ability to conduct operations for the rest of the war? And we all know about the complete incompetence of the BEF generalship but would better leadership have won the battle or was the Somme a completely inept asinine calamity that was doomed to failure?

While many experience men died, many officers and NCO both lived and greatly improved as soldiers. If the British had simply skipped any major offensive in 1916, the performance of the officers in 1917 is likely worse. Some lessons have to be learned in battle, and many of the mistakes of 1916 will just be done in the first large battle in 1917. The new divisions improved in quality from 1915 to 1918, so the British Army was getting better. Now if the UK is idle for 1916, the material situation will be much better for them, but their are some real downsides.

1) Diplomatic - France will feel abandoned.

2) Verdun will cost the French a lot more because the Germans don't have to move resources to the Somme to defend.

3) The Mutiny of the French army in 1917 could be much worse. Not doing the Somme risks France losing the will to fight.

4) Diplomatic - Itay is fighting hard, and will also fill abandoned.

5) Diplomatic - Russia. If the UK looks like it lacks enthusiasm, then the Russians (White or Red) might be much more willing to leave the war.

Despite the horrors of the Somme, it was a necessary battle. If the British are unwilling to fight in 1916, then they need to make a very generous peace offer to Germany and end the war. The only thing worse than fighting a major war is fighting a major war and refusing to try to win. Wars are not won with inaction.

I am curious. What do you think the British high command should have done in 1916?
 
Those that criticise Haig don't seem to have looked at the casualty figures in WW2 when units were actually fighting, they could be every bit as bad as those in WW1 even with portable radio comms but for some reason its the figures of WW1 that keep getting dragged up........possibly due to the way the system put men from the same area in the same units making losses look disproportionately bad overall but also because people are happy to carry on quoting shite started by politicians to cover their own inadequacies and perpetuated by politicians looking to make a quick buck..
 
Putting asside hindsight as much as possible, and given the experience of those in command at the time the only example of crass stupidity I can see is the Pals Battilian concept. I understand the logic of having men from the same community fighting together given the limited amount of time the army had to instill esprit de corps, but the generals had seen the effects of machine guns and should have reallised that whole communities could be destroyed in minutes. Even now 96 years after the Battle of the Somme there are areas that never recoverd from the losses. It is my belief that the begining of the end of the British Empire was not as is often said the fall of Singapore, but rather August 4th 1914. Britain had to fight, but the losses were more than could be absorbed without damage to the National Spirit.

The two battles that are used to lambast Haig, The Somme and Third Ypres were necessary to take presure off the French and in that they succeded. They were brutal affairs but at the time the defensive powers of armies were far in advance of their offensive potential and the means to break that stalemate were in their infancy. That just over a year after the first use of tanks the British staged a massed attack with them at the Battle of Cambrais should have but to death the legend of the unimaginative high command. That there were enough tanks to carry out such an attack makes a mockery of the idea that all Haigs brains were in his horse.
 
What really annoys me is how many people think that the first day on the Somme led to 60,000 British dead. No, it was 60,000 British casualties. That's still bad, but not AS bad.
 
Wondering why the OP got kicked I discovered that the first post is a duplicate from a previous thread by a banned poster:

This one

The topic attracted much the same sort of responses last time as well, still good to have some proper discussion about the conduct of WWI.
 
“He’s a cheery old card said Harry to Jack
As they marched up to Arras with rifle and pack
But he did for them both with his plan of attack.”


The War Poets might not have been targeting 'Haig' but they surely were mightily pissed off by the shit they found themselves in. And remember - these wuz h'officers and privileged members of British society. I hear some historical revisionism here.
 
The War Poets might not have been targeting 'Haig' but they surely were mightily pissed off by the shit they found themselves in.
Not that any of them seem to have come up with any better ideas about how to win, presuming that just packing up & going home while leaving Germany in control of so much of Belgium & northern France wasn't a reasonable choice...

And maybe some of them felt, even if they didn't openly acknowledge the idea (perhaps not even to themselves), that conscription shouldn't have been extended to their social class?
 
Last edited:
Top