No Habsburg Spain = No Habsburg Hungary?

Was the fact that Austria had access to Spanish gold and silver the reason they were able to conquer Hungary in the first place? Could they still conquer it without Spanish support but without as much land as they could have?
 
Was the fact that Austria had access to Spanish gold and silver the reason they were able to conquer Hungary in the first place? Could they still conquer it without Spanish support but without as much land as they could have?

People forget that the Burgundian Lands provided far more revenue for the Habsburgs than the New World. According to Klaus Bade's "Migration in European History" the revenue obtained by the Spanish crown in Antwerp and Rotterdam was seven times the value of all of the silver it acquired from Central America. The low countries and their German hinterland accounted for 50% of world trade during the 16th century.
 
I would say that since the Austrian Habsburgs only actually conquered Hungary after the Spanish Golden Age had ended and they had suffered numerous financial collapses, that no the lack of a Spanish Branch would not hurt them at all.

If anything, building on what Viriato said, not having a Spanish Branch may actually help them as it would ensure that the Burgundian Lands remain with Austria, and the Habsburg Wealth is less spread out, allowing them to focus more on specific theaters.
 
After the battle of Mohacs until the siege of Vienna in 1683 the biggest part of Hungary stayed in Ottoman hands.

Assume that Spain is naver a Habsburg land. Then THE OTLS Habsburgs have Probably inherited the Burgundian "NEtherlands".

Ofter 1526 (Mohacs) the Habsburgs also aquired Bohemia and part of Hungary.

If Spain has a "domestic" king the French HAbsburg enmity will probably not develop or at least not be as pronounced as OTL.

Spain and France might fight for Italy, bbut the "HAbsburgs" will be able to concentrate on GErmany and or the Ottoman empire.

The 30 years war might be butterflied away. An independent Netherlands might either not esit (if it stays with the HAbsburgs) or include the OTL "SPanish" NEtherlands.
 
With no Spanish connection, the Habsburgs may themselves turn Protestant. So Germany becomes effectively a Protestant country with a modest Catholic minority to weak to make any bid for power. In that case the TYW is most certainly butterflied.
 
With no Spanish connection, the Habsburgs may themselves turn Protestant. So Germany becomes effectively a Protestant country with a modest Catholic minority to weak to make any bid for power. In that case the TYW is most certainly butterflied.

I beg to differ. Most were devout Catholics, but there's also a connection to the position of (elected) Holy Roman Emperor. They didn't have much to gain from converting, unlike various imperial princes; heck a protestant Emperor might convince a majority of Imperial princes (well those, who were mainly politically motivated) to stay Catholic. Apart from religious considerations, there were also political motives, often a combination of both.

I also agree with Viriato and JCVocke, that no Habsburg Spain might in fact have helped the Habsburgs against the Ottomans. At best they might have able to defend Hungary-Croatia against the Ottomans, but they wouldn't have been able to go on the offensive.

There will still be some French-Spanish rivalry even when the Spanish kingdoms would be ruled by the house of Trastamare (Aragon-Castille) or Aviz. Neither will French-Habsburg relations always be friendly, but ITTL alliances IMHO are more likely to change more often.

OTOH even ITTL French interests will probably still clash with Spanish and Habsburg interests, given Italy and Burgundy & the Low Countries. The Burgundian territories were rich, but also vulnerable to French aggression. As for Italy, Spanish interests lied in southern Italy, whereas the Habsburgs were mostly interested in northern Italy and in particular the duchy of Milan. That interest is twofold, the north was (at least nominally) a part of the Empire and the Habsburg dynasty had de facto hereditary succession in the Empire; however secondly more pragmatically the duchy of Milan is dangerously close to the Habsburg Austrian Hereditary Lands. So the Habsburg will want a least a friendly ruler in Milan.
 
Was the fact that Austria had access to Spanish gold and silver the reason they were able to conquer Hungary in the first place? Could they still conquer it without Spanish support but without as much land as they could have?

I am not sure to understand your question.

The austrian Habsburgs initially inherited the crown of Hungary. Ferdinand of Habsburg was married to Anne Jagellon who became heiress of the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary when her only brother Louis II died childless at the battle of Mohacs.

It seems obvious to me that, with or without holding Spain and its colonies, a Habsburg prince, be it Ferdinand or his elder brother Charles V instead, would have married Anne Jagellon.

Now concerning reconquest of Hungary by the Habsburgs, it is not the spanish-american gold and silver that paid for it. It began only in the very late 17th century when Spain was in decline and more or less broke and, as far as I know, Spain did not pay for it (or if it ever gave some help, it was marginal).
 
I beg to differ. Most were devout Catholics, but there's also a connection to the position of (elected) Holy Roman Emperor. They didn't have much to gain from converting, unlike various imperial princes; heck a protestant Emperor might convince a majority of Imperial princes (well those, who were mainly politically motivated) to stay Catholic. Apart from religious considerations, there were also political motives, often a combination of both.

Were they any more devout than Princes in general, until their Spanish connection tied them hand and foot to the Catholic side?

As for the HRE, There were seven Electorates at the time, and three - Brandenburg, Saxony and Palatinate - went Protestant. Had the Habsburg Kings of Bohemia done so, there would have been a Protestant majority. Also, iirc, the Electorate of Cologne came close to defecting, and was only prevented by outside intervention - which would probably have been impossible had /Austria and the Netherlands been under a Protestant dynasty.
 
Was the fact that Austria had access to Spanish gold and silver the reason they were able to conquer Hungary in the first place? Could they still conquer it without Spanish support but without as much land as they could have?

I am not sure to understand your question.

The austrian Habsburgs initially inherited the crown of Hungary. Ferdinand of Habsburg was married to Anne Jagellon who became heiress of the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary when her only brother Louis II died childless at the battle of Mohacs.

It seems obvious to me that, with or without holding Spain and its colonies, a Habsburg prince, be it Ferdinand or his elder brother Charles V instead, would have married Anne Jagellon.

Now concerning reconquest of Hungary by the Habsburgs, it is not the spanish-american gold and silver that paid for it. It began only in the very late 17th century when Spain was in decline and more or less broke and, as far as I know, Spain did not pay for it (or if it ever gave some help, it was marginal).



Archduke Ferdinand of Austria (10 March 1503 – 25 July 1564) married Anne Jagiellonica (23 July 1503 – 27 January 1547), daughter of King Vladislaus II of Bohemia and Hungary on 25 May 1521 in Linz.
However before Louis II Jagiellon (1 July 1506 – 29 August 1526) King of Bohemia and Hungary, young brother of Anne Jagiellonica, married on 22 July 1515 in St. Stephen's Cathedral, Vienna, Mary of Austria (15 September 1505 – 18 October 1558), daughter of Queen Joanna and King Philip I of Castile, sister of the Archduke Ferdinand. At the same time, Louis' sister Anne Jagiellonica was betrothed to Archduke Ferdinand, with Emperor Maximilian acting as proxy.

But in Hungary, under the leadership of John Zápolya, the Diet had voted that no foreign prince would ever again be elected King of Hungary after King Vladislaus II, but only a Hungarian. The declaration of the idea of a national kingdom was against the Habsburgs. However, Vladislaus did not enforce the "Rákos resolution", but rather he invalidated it: he made a Habsburg-Jagiellon mutual succession treaty with Emperor Maximilian in March 1506.
Emperor Maximilian I has promised to marry his granddaughter Mary to the first son born to King Vladislaus II of Hungary. At the same time, the two monarchs had decided that a brother of Mary would marry Vladislaus' daughter Anne.
These political marriages reflected well the motto so dear to the Emperor Maximilian I «Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria nube. Nam quae Mars aliis, dat tibi regna Venus» (Let others wage war, but thou, O happy Austria, marry; for those kingdoms which Mars gives to others, Venus gives to thee): he sought to extend his sphere of influence towards the east. Already after the death of Matthias Corvinus in April 1490, the German-Roman King Maximilian had been one of four candidates for the Hungarian throne. But Maximilian, who based his claims to the throne on the right of succession (king Albert of Austria and the unlucky Ladislaus the Posthumous) did not have many supporters between the Hungarian nobles.


The double wedding was further confirmed by the terms of the First Congress of Vienna in 1515, the meeting of the Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian I, and the Jagiellonian brothers, Vladislaus II, King of Hungary and King of Bohemia, and Sigismund I, King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, at which is followed, in fact, a few days later the double engagement ceremony in the St. Stephen's Cathedral.
The Jagiellonian rulers of Lithuania, Poland, Hungary and Bohemia had been facing simultaneous threats on all fronts, from the Emperor, the Russians, the Teutonic Order under Albert of Prussia, and the Crimean Tatars.
Taking advantage of this situation, Maximilian planned this congress to cement his claims in central Europe, advancing the Habsburg claims to the succession in Hungary and Bohemia.
The First Congress of Vienna became a turning point in the history of central Europe.
Although the death of Lasislao was predictable, because he had suffered a stroke (he died infact on 13 March 1516), Maximilian had no the crystal ball to predict that the kingdoms of Hungary and Bohemia would effectively passed to his heirs: was for the Providence that the Maximilian's grandson, Ferdinand, succeeded to the childless bother-in-law Louis II as King of Hungary and Bohemia in 1526.



wedding.jpg
A woodcut by Albrecht Dürer
commemorates the double wedding on 22 July 1515.
From left to right:
Maximilian I; Maximilian's granddaughter, Mary (age 9) marrying Vladislaus's son Louis (age 9);
Vladislaus II; Vladislaus's daughter, Anna (age 12);
and Vladislaus's brother, Sigismund I.
In reality Anna's betrothed Ferdinand I (age 11) is not shown.














wedding.jpg
 
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The Netherlands' Golden Age was funded by profits from long-distance shipping. During the 16th century, they built large fleets to haul riches from Latin America. During the 17th century, Dutch merchants got into the spice trade around the Indian Ocean. They grew wealthy selling exotic spices to Europeans.
 
The Netherlands' Golden Age was funded by profits from long-distance shipping. During the 16th century, they built large fleets to haul riches from Latin America. During the 17th century, Dutch merchants got into the spice trade around the Indian Ocean. They grew wealthy selling exotic spices to Europeans.

This is true of the Northern Netherlands, but keep in mind that Antwerp was one of Europe's primary trading cities. Also, cities such as Bruges, Ghent, Lille and Brussels were already major hubs of commerce and manufacturing by the middle ages. Even before the 17th century, the region accounted for around half of the world's trade. What became the United Provinces benefited from exodus of Protestants merchants and craftsmen from the Southern Netherlands due to Spanish suppression there.

The industrialization of Flanders beginning in the 12th and 13th centuries is what made the region so important. Textiles including tapestries were a major export of the region. The taxes collected in the Burgundian Inheritance were far more important than silver, which fluctuated in value.
 
Actually the Baltic trade remained the backbone of Dutch trade during the Republic of the 7 United Netherlands.
The V.O.C. was very profitable, the W.I.C. a bit less, but don't underestimate the Baltic trade.

@Mikestone8: some were, it's their religion, though that's similar for both (Protestants & Catholics) sides. OTOH a few weren't, some were suspected to have Protestant sympathies (like Maximilian II), whereas Rudolf II was even more complex. Also being the Imperial dynasty, in pre Reformation times, tied them to the (Catholic) Church.
However, again, if the Emperor converts, then at least some Imperial Princes, which converted IOTL, now have an incentive to stay Catholic. Not everyone wanted a united Empire ruled by a strong Emperor; that did influence the decision of the secular Prince-Electors (though like the Habsburgs, some also had religious motives).
 
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Actually the Baltic trade remained the backbone of Dutch trade during the Republic of the 7 United Netherlands.
The V.O.C. was very profitable, the W.I.C. a bit less, but don't underestimate the Baltic trade.
Do you mean that the Baltic trade was a safe market for the Dutch, or that it comprised a plurality of their global trade revenues?

I recall reading somewhere that, adjusted for inflation, the VOC is the richest company in history.
 
But in Hungary, under the leadership of John Zápolya, the Diet had voted that no foreign prince would ever again be elected King of Hungary after King Vladislaus II, but only a Hungarian. The declaration of the idea of a national kingdom was against the Habsburgs. However, Vladislaus did not enforce the "Rákos resolution", but rather he invalidated it... for the Providence that the Maximilian's grandson, Ferdinand, succeeded to the childless bother-in-law Louis II as King of Hungary and Bohemia in 1526.

But Ferdinand's succession was far from undisputed: the Zápolyas became rulers of an "East Hungarian Kingdom" based in Transylvania, and there were decades of intrigue and warfare between the Hapburgs, the Zápolyas, and the Turks.

The Hapsburgs became the undisputed rulers of Christian Hungary only after John II Sigismund Zápolya conceded the crown in 1571 to Ferdinand's son, Maximilian II. (Why, I'm not sure, but he died the next year with no children.) Transylvania became effectively autonomous.

If the Austrian Hapsburgs get no help from their Spanish cousins in the later 1500s, then it may well be impossible for Ferdinand and Maximilian to impose themselves on Hungary.

There are also butterflies. The Habsburg union with Spain was made by the marriage of Philip 'the Handsome' von Habsburg and Joan 'the Mad' of Castile and Aragon in 1496. Suppose that does not happen, or suppose Joan is not the heiress. Her older sister Isabella was married to Crown Prince Afonso of Portugal, who died by accident, and then to his cousin Manuel, who had succeded as King; their only son Miguel was heir to all three Spanish kingdoms but died young. Joan also had a brother John who died young without living children.

If Afonso had survived and begotten heirs, or Manuel and Isabella had more children, or the boy Miguel lived, or Joan's brother John had lived and begotten heirs... then Charles, the son of Philip and Joan, is not heir to the Spanish dominions, that is, Spain, Sardinia, Sicily, Naples, and the Americas. (Also a claim to Milan, held by Aragon till 1515, when it was seized by France.) He is heir to the Habsburg dominions in SE Germany and to the Burgundian lands in NW Germany, and very probably becomes HRE.

While the butterflies probably start in the 1490s, Charles or a parallel is very likely, since he had five living siblings. Emperor Maximilian may still press for dynastic marriages to Hungary: he married two of his grandchildren by Philip and Joan to Ladislaus II of Hungary's children, Mary and Louis. But Ladislaus might have different children (they were born after 1500). Also, the crown passed to Ferdinand after Louis was killed at the battle of Mohacs leaving no heir. While the Habsburgs were trying for it, I think the butterflies probably prevent the union of crowns.

But again, we can skip that and suppose that alt-Ferdinand is heir to his brother in law. Can he make that stick against the opposition of the Hungarian diet, which elected Zápolya? OTL he had the backing of his brother Charles, who could draw on the resources of Spain. Those resources included Spanish bullion, also Spanish troops. OTOH, Charles was drawn into wars in Italy with France over Milan. Alt-Charles has no claim to Milan. The question is whether the support from Spain was greater than the drain of the Italian Wars.

Looking at it, I would say it was not. Spanish troops fought in Germany for Charles against Protestant rebels. ATL, those troops have to be made up from Charles' HRE lands. That means less for Ferdinand's cause in Hungary. OTL he defeated Zápolya on several occasions; if he has fewer troops, and loses those battles, Zápolya probably holds the crown.

So there's OP's answer.

This has an interesting knock-on; it was the Habsburg-Zápolya war in Hungary which led to the intervention of Turkey and the 1529 siege of Vienna.
 
Austria-Burgundy would still have the wealth of the Low Countries at their disposal, which was the possession they got most of their income from. Naples & Sicily had a comparable population as the Low Countries, but tax income was 3 times lower, also the Burgundian Netherlands could afford loans, which were twice as high as Castille. Antwerpen (later during the Republic Amsterdam) was Europe most important (global) trade town in this era.

The Habsburgs getting Spain was a fluke, but Hungary-Bohemia was a more deliberate policy, and certainly Austria was a natural ally against the Ottomans, since if Hungary would fall they will be next to directly face this threat. Sure they were lucky that Louis II died in battle, but regaining those kingdoms had been a Habsburg policy ever since they lost them.
However without a Spanish inheritance ITTL Charles* and not Ferdinand* (*= TTL eldest grandson) is the most likely candidate to marry Anne of Bohemia-Hungary.

@ Anarch: TTL Charles/Ferdinand will still have a claim on Milan, since it derived from the Empire and not so much Aragon. Who was entitled to gain Milan was an arguement between OTL Charles and Ferdinand, especially since the proximity to Austria.

Anyway ITTL without a Spanish and Austrian branch the Habsburgs may actually have been able to direct more resources towards Hungary, since without Spain they can prioritize on fewer areas and they would still have the wealth of Low Countries and AFAIK silver mines of Tirol.
 
First of all the Habsburgs didnt conquer Hungary. The hungarian nobility - or at least a part of it - chose Ferdinand to be the King of Hungary after the last king died at Mohacs in 1526. The reason Ferdinand was chosen was that by making him the king of Hungary he had to fight the ottomans using the resources of his other countries as well.

There was another king chosen by the other part of the nobility - he was a local noble. This led to a civil war. In the end Ferdinand became the King of Hungary and from the other kings territories the Principality of Transylvania was formed under the rule of his son.

And the ottomans conquered the middle of the country.
 
@ Tibi088: True, but his marriage with Anne, sister of the previous king, made Ferdinand an acceptable candidate.
I'm only arguing that ITTL the Habsburgs can focus more of their resources on a three way conflict than IOTL.
 
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