No Greek campaign 1941

This topic has probably been posted on befre- but WI Churchill hadn't authorised the 1941 campaign to Greece to help defend against the Germans and Italians ? Given that Gen O'Connor had trounced the italians in the Western desert, would no diversion of the AIF & NZEF to the hopeless adventure in Greece have enabled the 8th Army to push on to secure all of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania before the Afrika Korps even set foor in Nth Afr ? How then does tWWII pan out ?
 
Well If the Italians had not attacked Greece the Germans never would of had to go bail them out . So would the Italians of sent those units to Afirica .
 
I don't think even the 8th army could advance that fast at that time. Remember logistics works both ways; eventually the British would outrun their supply lines and have to consolidate their gains before continuing to advance. I can see greater gains being made, but eventually the British would have to stop in order to have supplies brought up.

Without any British reinforcement in Greece, look for a faster Greek defeat (probably a month faster) and a less serious battle for Crete. The large part for the Greek campaign taking as long as it did was the British supplying troops to prop up the Greeks against the Germans. This might also influence the British offensive in Africa, because the Germans could decide to install bombers on the island and use them to attack Allied shipping in the Aegean.
 
The large part for the Greek campaign taking as long as it did was the British supplying troops to prop up the Greeks against the Germans.
That's not true.
Until the British landed in Greece, Greece had already turned the tide in Albania and had the Italians retreating.
So if you consider the Greek campaign to actually encompass the entire Greek-Axis war, from October 1949 onwards, then the Greek fought most of the campaign alone.
Without a British involvement in Greece, one could expect the Greek Front in Northern Greece to indeed collapse faster. Furthermore less offensives would take place against the Italians, since the Greeks would not be able to strip off the defenses in Thrace and Macedonia that much as they did in OTL. Special care would have to be taken to cover the access towards Central and Southern Greek and more troops may be withheld in the rear, unlike in the OTL. In OTL the Greek Army was trapped in Macedonia and Thrace, being bypassed by the Germans who drove South through Yugoslavia. This did happen in part, because the Greeks had British reinforcements landing at their backs and thus had the ability to forward deploy their troops to make a stand at the border.
Without the British there, the Greeks may decide to let go of Macedonia and Thrace unlike they did in OTL, thus retrating faster to the South. This was a standard operations plan at that time (and even during the Cold War later on) in case of massive invasion from the North. The border with Bulgaria and Yugoslavia was simple too lengthy to be effectively defended and there is not much depth, the Greek Army can retreat to. So, we have the Greek Army in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace forward deploying some troops to undertake delaying actions on the border (like in OTL), but the rest of the troops would make a stand further South, perhaps not at Thermopylae, but at Tembi. Losing there they would retreat further to the South, trying to cover Athens. If the Greeks are smart, they will blow up the Isthmus bridges while retreating, thus making access to Peloponese impossible to the Axis in the short term.
Perhaps the British could detach some ships to the Aegean and manage to sealift a large portion of the retreating US Army from Peloponese to Crete.

This could have major butterflies, since more Greeks in Crete could very well make the German invasion very difficult.
 
Last edited:
That's not true.
Until the British landed in Greece, Greece had already turned the tide in Albania and had the Italians retreating.

I meant against the Germans, I incorrectly assumed people would realize that :p. The Greeks easily could hold their own against the Italians, it was against the Germans they had no hope of any sort of victory.

I disagree about Crete, however, as it is just as likely the Greeks would surrender before an invasion would take place as it is to them holding out. With no British support (as this thread states the British avoiding any sort of involvement in Greece), the Greeks will probably not try to fight for the island compared to OTL.

And it might be a typo in your post, but I thought the US Army was not involved in World War II--or Greece--during this time? ;)
 
Have a look at the thread somewhere about Operation Compass, which has the Brits pursuing success after Compass rather than going to Greece.

For mine I think there would be a major battle between a strong Brit force and an understrength Rommel in the Al Agheila area which wouldn't result in OTL's Brit rout.
 
This topic has probably been posted on befre- but WI Churchill hadn't authorised the 1941 campaign to Greece to help defend against the Germans and Italians ? Given that Gen O'Connor had trounced the italians in the Western desert, would no diversion of the AIF & NZEF to the hopeless adventure in Greece have enabled the 8th Army to push on to secure all of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania before the Afrika Korps even set foor in Nth Afr ? How then does tWWII pan out ?

It is best described by Condor at https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=89004,

In short it has big effects. The german intervention in North Africa is against coordinated and experienced troops which leads to far more equal fighting and the british army doesn't have another Dunkrik with loss of materiel and soldiers. Singapore is not depleted of soldiers to compensate for the losses in Greece and North Africa, and survives the Japanese attack. Thailand stays on the Allied side. (Condor seems to be rewriting the scenario, so I am a bit uncertain of the current situation.)
 
This topic has probably been posted on befre- but WI Churchill hadn't authorised the 1941 campaign to Greece to help defend against the Germans and Italians ? Given that Gen O'Connor had trounced the italians in the Western desert, would no diversion of the AIF & NZEF to the hopeless adventure in Greece have enabled the 8th Army to push on to secure all of Cyrenaica and Tripolitania before the Afrika Korps even set foor in Nth Afr ? How then does tWWII pan out ?

Actually Churchill pressed greek Prime Minister Metaxas to allow British troops to be stationed in Greece but he kept refusing the offer... Even after the Italian attack Metaxas refused British help because he didnt wanted to draw Hitler's wrath by allowing British in Greek territory...
British finally made it to Greece after Metaxas's sudden death in 29 January 1941 (a sudden death which sparked rumours that he was poisoned by British agents in order that his successor allow them to enter Greek soil)
Had Metaxas lived longer and the British would have never entered Greece nor Germans would attack Greece since the main reason for attacking was British presense in Hitler's flank which endangered Barbarossa plan...
 

Markus

Banned
This topic has probably been posted on befre- but WI Churchill hadn't authorised the 1941 campaign to Greece to help defend against the Germans and Italians ?

If the Greeks know they can get no troops from the UK the best thing to do is to request German mediation. They are still going to loose territory to the Italians, but at least they avoid a full scale Axis invasion.

About South East Asia. Singapore was not stripped because they had very little land, sea and airpower there in the first place. Some of the bomber and recon squadrons were withdrawn in 1940 and send to East Africa, but that would have hardly made a difference. However without the losses suffered in Greece and Crete more reinforcements could(!) have been send to Malaya. I´m not sure if they would have been send. I got the impression the Japanese were underestimated to the extent of not being considered a serious enemy
 
Condor seems to be rewriting the scenario, so I am a bit uncertain of the current situation.
I've been reading it. There's some changes in the details, but the thrust hasn't changed: the Italians get really spanked, O'Connor does real well, & Yamashita gets a spanking, too.
 
Top