Agreed. No comparison with anything in Europe. To be fair, the PLC did have “structure”. The problem was with the specifics of its implementation. Anyway, this was a side remark and I’m not going to get distracted by analysis of a comparative degree of a state-wide chaos. Probably the PLC would end as #1.
No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)
- Thread starter alexmilman
- Start date
This would do just fine for Peter but Marlborough found the food very bad. I have no idea what was offered to him but Thackeray commented in one of his books (I think it was The History of Henry Esmond) that the Duke himself was rather stingy as far as his own table was concerned.
A little bit more fun….
12. A little bit more fun….
[I found it extremely difficult to switch from Charles to the main hero because at that time Charles, August and the PLC definitely provide a much greater entertainment but any fun is going to end and it will be sooner rather than later]
It is early 1702. Charles just ordered his army to start marching to the South, in other words, to Warsaw. 6,000 troops under command of sick Stewart are left to garrison Courland.
By his interference into the Lithuanian civil war Charles managed to turn it into the anti-Swedish war. Not very efficient, of course, but two Swedish detachments sent into Lithuania were almost completely exterminated and Charles himself on his march had been repeatedky engaged into small-scale encounters with the troops of Oginski and Wiśniowiecki. Finally, he got pissed off an issued an order to start killing all captured enemies (and, of course, burning the places implicated in supporting his enemies). All Swedish forces finally got assembled at Kovno (Kaunas) and on April 8 the army renewed its march along the Nieman.
Just at this moment arrived the Polish delegation which was including few senators, voyevods, starosts and Count Tarlo [1]. Their mission was to prevent Charles from entering Poland [2]. Understandably, Charles was in no rush to receive them but eventually the formal reception was scheduled for the May 2nd, after Charles crossed the Nieman.
The circus started. First, the members of delegation demanded that, as per standard protocol, they should be driven to the reception in the royal carriages. Oops, Charles had none but offered, as an alternative, that they will have a honorary escort of the Swedish life-guards to which the ambassadors conceded but demanded that they must be addressed as “serenissima” to which the Swedes disagreed because by an international protocol this title could be used only if the ambassadors represented a state in an absence of the king. After some bargaining both sides agreed upon “inclit” (“renowned”). The ambassadors had been trying to convince Charles (a) not to enter Poland and (b) to return the cannons, which the Saxons took from them and which Charles captured. For a while Charles stoically listened to their speeches but then tried to explain that if the Poles are going to get rid of August they may get back not only the guns but perhaps some benefits as well [3]. By the end of the audience the ambassadors started quarreling with each other all the way to a vulgar brawl and saber rattling [4].
For the first time Charles got a glimps of with whom he would have to deal on the state issues in the PLC and the first doubts started forming in his mind.
August left Warsaw before s—t hit the fan but even before this he managed to convince the Senate, at the face of the Swedish invasion, to authorize mobilization of the crown army but without declaring a war on Sweden. The grand strategy, as formulated by his favorite, Flemming, was not to confront Charles but maneuver, attract to his side Denmark, Prussia, Austria and maritime powers in expectation that sooner or later the Poles are going to figure out that the Swedish occupation is worse than Saxon one and start fighting the Swedes.
On May 24th the Swedish army entered Praga, a suburb of Warsaw and, while the bridge across Vistula was being built, Charles crossed the river in a boat with his retinue and amazed his generals by pointing the precise position of every Swedish regiment during the Battle of Warsaw, 1656.
The 1st place Charles visited in Warsaw was the palace in which a French painter was still working on a portrait of August. As Charles’ historiographer, Gustaf Adlerfelt, present at the episode remarked, “Charles looked at the portrait of his opponent with great interest”. The Duke of Holstein, also accompanied by the same historiographer, found another place of interest to visit, a French restaurant [6]. The next month was spent at the balls and receptions given by the Polish magnates [7] . Charles issued a strict order not to provoke the population in a rather optimistic hope that the Poles eventually “will come to their senses” and understand that deposing August is a reasonable and necessary thing to do.
Arrival of Cardinal Radziewski, who was attending all balls accompanied by his mistress, cheered everybody up: after all, he was the most knowledgeable person in the PLC politics. Count Piper was reciprocating by staging receptions for everybody who mattered trying to smooth Charles’ soldier manners. Piper managed to sign a treaty of neutrality with Prussia. Frederick I of Prussia was ready to consider a military alliance but Charles refused to cede him the Polish town of Elblag (which would provide him with a full control of the Vistula Lagoon). The defensive treaty with the maritime powers secured Sweden against potential surprises from Denmark.
Charles was the only one being busy with a real business, dealing with the needs of his army and waiting for arrival of the reinforcements from Pomerania and the troops of Stenbock and Moerner which were still putting Lithuania “in order” [8] accompanied by the Russian troops.
In the late June 1702 the Swedish army, 8,000 strong (troops from Pomerania did not arrive, yet), started marching to Krakow. Everywhere along the route he had to live the garrisons so the army kept shrinking. Even a mediocre strategist would start worrying but not Charles who believed in his troops [9].
By the early July Charles’ army, his troops marching from Lithuania, Saxon army and the Polish crown army led by Hetman Lubomirsky
had been closing on Krakow.
___________
[1] More than one member of that family was still alive at that time and it looks like all of them were not admirers of King August so I don’t know which one was present. They were one of the most powerful magnate families in the PLC so presence of a member of this family should add a lot of weight to the delegation. The best known, Jan Tarlo (below) was only 16 years old so it could be his father or uncle (bishop of Poznan)
[2] This is the PLC and its components generally don’t give a damn about each other so in this case the operational slogan was “Screw Lithuania!”
[3] In OTL he was hinting to the lands lost to the Tsardom in mid-XVII but here he has to be more vague: openly screwing a close ally woukd be against his principles. Perhaps promise of some cookies being regularly sent to them on Christmas.
[4] Probably about amounts of cookies each if them is going to get.
[5] Just as a guess, in an unlikely case that any of them knew disposition better and found that Charles was wrong, it is even less likely that this person would start flapping his mouth contradicting the King when he is demonstrating what a smart guy he is.
[6] Gustaf Adlerfelt seemingly had a gift to be present everywhere. In OTL he finally managed to be present in a wring place in a wrong time: at Poltava he was following Charles’ stretcher and had been hit by a cannonball.
[7] Who were, seemingly, against the Swedish invasion of Poland but this is the PLC so the logic does not apply, especially when there is a chance to drink and dance.
[8] And “collecting” values both for the King and for themselves.
[9] The difference between mediocracy and genius is usually defined post factum based upon the end result.
[I found it extremely difficult to switch from Charles to the main hero because at that time Charles, August and the PLC definitely provide a much greater entertainment but any fun is going to end and it will be sooner rather than later]
It is early 1702. Charles just ordered his army to start marching to the South, in other words, to Warsaw. 6,000 troops under command of sick Stewart are left to garrison Courland.
By his interference into the Lithuanian civil war Charles managed to turn it into the anti-Swedish war. Not very efficient, of course, but two Swedish detachments sent into Lithuania were almost completely exterminated and Charles himself on his march had been repeatedky engaged into small-scale encounters with the troops of Oginski and Wiśniowiecki. Finally, he got pissed off an issued an order to start killing all captured enemies (and, of course, burning the places implicated in supporting his enemies). All Swedish forces finally got assembled at Kovno (Kaunas) and on April 8 the army renewed its march along the Nieman.
Just at this moment arrived the Polish delegation which was including few senators, voyevods, starosts and Count Tarlo [1]. Their mission was to prevent Charles from entering Poland [2]. Understandably, Charles was in no rush to receive them but eventually the formal reception was scheduled for the May 2nd, after Charles crossed the Nieman.
The circus started. First, the members of delegation demanded that, as per standard protocol, they should be driven to the reception in the royal carriages. Oops, Charles had none but offered, as an alternative, that they will have a honorary escort of the Swedish life-guards to which the ambassadors conceded but demanded that they must be addressed as “serenissima” to which the Swedes disagreed because by an international protocol this title could be used only if the ambassadors represented a state in an absence of the king. After some bargaining both sides agreed upon “inclit” (“renowned”). The ambassadors had been trying to convince Charles (a) not to enter Poland and (b) to return the cannons, which the Saxons took from them and which Charles captured. For a while Charles stoically listened to their speeches but then tried to explain that if the Poles are going to get rid of August they may get back not only the guns but perhaps some benefits as well [3]. By the end of the audience the ambassadors started quarreling with each other all the way to a vulgar brawl and saber rattling [4].
For the first time Charles got a glimps of with whom he would have to deal on the state issues in the PLC and the first doubts started forming in his mind.
August left Warsaw before s—t hit the fan but even before this he managed to convince the Senate, at the face of the Swedish invasion, to authorize mobilization of the crown army but without declaring a war on Sweden. The grand strategy, as formulated by his favorite, Flemming, was not to confront Charles but maneuver, attract to his side Denmark, Prussia, Austria and maritime powers in expectation that sooner or later the Poles are going to figure out that the Swedish occupation is worse than Saxon one and start fighting the Swedes.
On May 24th the Swedish army entered Praga, a suburb of Warsaw and, while the bridge across Vistula was being built, Charles crossed the river in a boat with his retinue and amazed his generals by pointing the precise position of every Swedish regiment during the Battle of Warsaw, 1656.
The 1st place Charles visited in Warsaw was the palace in which a French painter was still working on a portrait of August. As Charles’ historiographer, Gustaf Adlerfelt, present at the episode remarked, “Charles looked at the portrait of his opponent with great interest”. The Duke of Holstein, also accompanied by the same historiographer, found another place of interest to visit, a French restaurant [6]. The next month was spent at the balls and receptions given by the Polish magnates [7] . Charles issued a strict order not to provoke the population in a rather optimistic hope that the Poles eventually “will come to their senses” and understand that deposing August is a reasonable and necessary thing to do.
Arrival of Cardinal Radziewski, who was attending all balls accompanied by his mistress, cheered everybody up: after all, he was the most knowledgeable person in the PLC politics. Count Piper was reciprocating by staging receptions for everybody who mattered trying to smooth Charles’ soldier manners. Piper managed to sign a treaty of neutrality with Prussia. Frederick I of Prussia was ready to consider a military alliance but Charles refused to cede him the Polish town of Elblag (which would provide him with a full control of the Vistula Lagoon). The defensive treaty with the maritime powers secured Sweden against potential surprises from Denmark.
Charles was the only one being busy with a real business, dealing with the needs of his army and waiting for arrival of the reinforcements from Pomerania and the troops of Stenbock and Moerner which were still putting Lithuania “in order” [8] accompanied by the Russian troops.
In the late June 1702 the Swedish army, 8,000 strong (troops from Pomerania did not arrive, yet), started marching to Krakow. Everywhere along the route he had to live the garrisons so the army kept shrinking. Even a mediocre strategist would start worrying but not Charles who believed in his troops [9].
By the early July Charles’ army, his troops marching from Lithuania, Saxon army and the Polish crown army led by Hetman Lubomirsky
had been closing on Krakow.
___________
[1] More than one member of that family was still alive at that time and it looks like all of them were not admirers of King August so I don’t know which one was present. They were one of the most powerful magnate families in the PLC so presence of a member of this family should add a lot of weight to the delegation. The best known, Jan Tarlo (below) was only 16 years old so it could be his father or uncle (bishop of Poznan)
[2] This is the PLC and its components generally don’t give a damn about each other so in this case the operational slogan was “Screw Lithuania!”
[3] In OTL he was hinting to the lands lost to the Tsardom in mid-XVII but here he has to be more vague: openly screwing a close ally woukd be against his principles. Perhaps promise of some cookies being regularly sent to them on Christmas.
[4] Probably about amounts of cookies each if them is going to get.
[5] Just as a guess, in an unlikely case that any of them knew disposition better and found that Charles was wrong, it is even less likely that this person would start flapping his mouth contradicting the King when he is demonstrating what a smart guy he is.
[6] Gustaf Adlerfelt seemingly had a gift to be present everywhere. In OTL he finally managed to be present in a wring place in a wrong time: at Poltava he was following Charles’ stretcher and had been hit by a cannonball.
[7] Who were, seemingly, against the Swedish invasion of Poland but this is the PLC so the logic does not apply, especially when there is a chance to drink and dance.
[8] And “collecting” values both for the King and for themselves.
[9] The difference between mediocracy and genius is usually defined post factum based upon the end result.
<Voices off> I told you, they're you're problem now...
I assume that the hated foreign invasion has not been enough to cause the Lithuanians to settle their differences, so we currently have two independent and mutually hostile Lithuanian armies trying to rescue their country from the Swedes and each other.
Sometimes I think that the Polish strategy of simply ignoring that they're being invaded by multiple enemies simultaneously is sheer crazy brilliance. At others, though
(Where is Augustus at the moment, by the way?)I think that's usually quoted as the difference between lunacy and genius. I doubt any mere mediocrity would even think of trying to conquer Poland with 8,000 men...
Also I think "mediacracy" would refer to a country ruled by the press or TV, depending on period. I don't think even the PLC is quite that, though if no-one is writing this all up as a soap opera they're missing a great publishing opportunity.
... And now I'm thinking of a bizarre anime adaptation where Charles, Peter, Augustus and all are re-imagined as teenage girls...
<voice in response>: no such luck….
By that time the Sapehas are mostly defeated so they are pretty much a political factor rather than a military one.
Sometimes I think that the Polish strategy of simply ignoring that they're being invaded by multiple enemies simultaneously is sheer crazy brilliance. At others, though
He in Krakow with the Saxon troops waiting for the Polish crown army to arricve.
This is fine by me. It is just that in Charles’ biography which I’m presently reading (and using without bothering to make the references) a sentence was “by that time a mediocre….” etc. 😜
If indeed the Little Northern War is indeed short, then Peter will have a lot of resources to throw against the Ottomans. His OTL armies that were destroyed by the Swedes, now they not only exist, but they are being trained by Swedes. Most of the treasure that was spent on campaigning in Ingria and Livonia, now it will be available for the next Russo-Ottoman War. If indeed Russia turns out to control the Dnieper, then Kiev can be turned into a major logistics base. Magazines can be developed further south before the Rapids are places such as Dnipro and Kodak. Starting from there, the obvious target is an ATL Kherson. The fortress of Ochakov could be the next target along with controlling the Bug estuary with an ATL Nikolayev.
As mentioned by the author, Kherson is much more suitable base to operate against Perekop. I would like to add, that it would also mean that if the Cossacks have a safe base there, they can launch corsair raids in the Black Sea with their chaikas, as they have successfully done so in the 17th century - when they reached even Constantinople.
If Crimea can be conquered within Peter's lifetime, it will be of paramount importance for Russia and eastern Europe in general. Half a century of slave raids can be butterflied. According to the book "Eurasian Slavery, Ransom and Abolition in World History", even during the 18th century, the Tatar slavers caught tens of thousands of Russian and PLC subjects as slaves. The author also argues that the actual human cost was much higher than the slaves that reached the crimean ports, since a significant percentage of them perished on the road, while others were butchered during the raid itself. It is mentioned also, that during a single year of Catherine's reign, 20,000 slaves were taken.
As mentioned by the author, Kherson is much more suitable base to operate against Perekop. I would like to add, that it would also mean that if the Cossacks have a safe base there, they can launch corsair raids in the Black Sea with their chaikas, as they have successfully done so in the 17th century - when they reached even Constantinople.
If Crimea can be conquered within Peter's lifetime, it will be of paramount importance for Russia and eastern Europe in general. Half a century of slave raids can be butterflied. According to the book "Eurasian Slavery, Ransom and Abolition in World History", even during the 18th century, the Tatar slavers caught tens of thousands of Russian and PLC subjects as slaves. The author also argues that the actual human cost was much higher than the slaves that reached the crimean ports, since a significant percentage of them perished on the road, while others were butchered during the raid itself. It is mentioned also, that during a single year of Catherine's reign, 20,000 slaves were taken.
There’s also the indirect human cost in that the continued Tatar raids kept the region from being developed.
Precisely!
We are talking about regions with superb agricultural land that were included in the upper reaches of the chernozem zone. Yet they were regularly depopulated. Not to mention that the Tatars used to steal also herds, be they horses or cattle and drive them south. It is no wonder why these areas remained under-developed for so long. It took basically two generations after the destruction of the khanate for the region to become the empire's agricultural powerhouse.
Forgotten player
13. Forgotten player
While Charles, August, the Lithuanians and the Poles had been quite busy with fighting, diplomacy, dances and drinking, Sheremetev’s army, after leaving few regiments to garrison Inflanty Polskie, was slowly moving South keeping close to the Russian border. Polotck and Witebsk had been taken without noticeable problems, the garrisons left securin and march to the South continued with the reinforcements from Smolensk joining the army. Fotmally, the goal was to secure the Right Bank Ukraine (on which the anti-Polish Cossack rebellion was going on) for Russia [2]. So by the time Charles reached Warsaw Sheremetev was in the Polish Kiew Woiewodship with his headquarters established in Zhytomyr.
March to the South involved quite a few encounters with the Lithuanian and Saxon forces and while they had been reasonably small [3], they produced a food for the very serious thoughts, which were putting some doubts upon the adopted military system:
1. Stress on the 3-pounders as the main caliber was dictated mostly by the cannon’s weight and easiness of transportation. By all practical means, unless present in really large numbers (which created its own problems with transportation), effect of their fire was quite low. The heavier 6- and 8-pounders produced a much greater effect and, with the improved “Bruce System”, their weight dropped to a quite manageable.
2. The enforced line tactics was just fine as long as the main goal was to train soldiers to march in formation and shoot by command. But after these two goals had been achieved, its practical application, especially against the Polish/Lithuanian cavalry proved to be quite inefficient, especially in combination with a cavalry ordered to do pretty much the same: to stay (and even dismount) and shoot. Of course, the enemy's attacks had been repelled with a reasonable ease (which was good) but also with the minimal losses caused to the enemy (which was not good at all) and with an enormous amount of a gunpowder and lead being wasted (Peter liked to count money). Not to mention that forming a line when the enemy’s cavalry suddenly charges from a nearby forest was not always possible. With the Saxons both sides had been forming the lines so any element of a surprise had been lost. Both sides had been firing into the whole wide world starting from the maximum distance and slowly marching toward each other stopping for recharging the muskets. The Saxon cavalry was attacking in caracole style, shooting the pistols and wheeling around (causing minimal losses) so the Russian dragoons standing and firing their muskets were producing a slightly greater damage. Most often , this circus had been won by the Russians due to the greater numbers of infantry, cavalry and artillery pieces. The outgunned Saxon commander would order a retreat and victorious Russians would hold the battlefield because the existing regulations explicitly forbade any energetic activities out of fear that the order would be lost giving the enemy an opportunity to counter-attack.
3. Bayonet was to be used exclusively as a defensive weapon even if the experience of storming the fortified positions demonstrated its high effectiveness as an offensive weapon both physically and psychologically [4].
4. On few occasions commanders of the separately marching units started making a virtue out of the necessity. Instead of spending a lot of time forming a proper line with the cavalry on the flanks and artillery at the front, they were hastily forming a battalion column out of the infantry marching by the platoons. With a very moderate training rearrangement was taking few minutes and the enemy was facing a column of 12 in-depth, 50 at the front with the guns on the flanks and between the columns and cavalry in reserve. This was more than enough for repelling charges of the Lithuanian irregulars and commanders had an excuse of being forced to act in an emergency situation.
Sheremetev was not some kind of a military genius or a visionary but he was an intelligent and experienced general with a serious advantage over his Western colleagues: he was not raised within a framework saying that the things must be done only in a certain way and that everything else is wrong. He adopted Peter’s system because his duty was to obey the royal orders, because it looked logical and because it was backed by the authority of “Western experience”. But now he found himself in a reality in which system seemingly did not work well and required adjustments. His conclusions had been strengthened by the ongoing Swedish experience and, to his surprise, he found a major supporter in colonel Weide, author of the existing regulations. Actually, this should not be a surprise at all. Weide was a honest and competent officer. Peter assigned to him a task of reviewing the Western military practices and based upon them to produce regulations for making Russian army “Western”, which he did. Now he served as a brigade commander in Sheremetev’s army and in this capacity getting a new experience, which he was analyzing with the same results as his commander. Together they composed a set of proposals which was sent to Peter for the consideration.
In doing so, both of them had been facing a complicated task of presenting their ideas to Peter in such a way that:
(a) They will not result in an immediate fit of wrath with their immediate dismissal and, quite probably execution for treason or some other crime involving a torture with the following slow and very painful death (like breaking on a wheel followed by a slow quartering).
(b) Make them convincing enough to be adopted.
(c) Get the necessary materiel (as far as artillery was invokved).
On a positive side they had the following factors:
(a) Sheremetev’s high prestige won for “the return of ancestral lands” and mutually-satisfactory cooperation with Charles.
(b) Weide’s own prestige as an expert in the existing methods of war: if he found some problem with his own regulations and offers improvements (even at risk of Peter’s displeasure) than it makes sense to look at these proposals.
(c) Peter’s love of the artillery and a big “boom”: hidden in the proposals was a compliment to the artillery reform that he ordered and to the Peter’s close personal friend, Jacob Bruce, whom he put in charge of it. So, at least Bruce’s cooperation could be expected.
(d) Unbeknown to them, they had a major backer in person of Alexander Menshikov who was itching fir a military glory (and had been reoeatedky asking Peter for some kind of a field command) and by his nature was inclined to the aggressive actions.
(e) What they also did not know, was that Peter had been regularly receiving detailed reports from Michael Golitsyn, whom he assigned to Charles and who was extremely enthusiastic about the Swedish practices, while on the other side if an equation the Swedish officers, borrowed from Charles to train Russian troops, had been openly critical about the prevailing “European” practices and never missed an occasion to rub noses of their German colleagues into the Swedish victories over the Saxons, who were highly regarded for their skills in these practices.
(f) As a “moral justification” Peter’s own sentence in the Regulations had been used: “a commander should not hold to the Regulations as a blind man holds to a wall”.
So “Sheremetev-Weide program” was presented as an expansion of the existing Regulations.
1. The line 3-in depth, firing by the platoons remained the main battle formation. Firing should start when enemy is within 50 steps or even closer.
2. At the discretion of the commanders, it was allowed (when appropriately) to use battalion “column from the center” [5] as a battle formation with the platoon columns being a standard marching formation.
3. When attacking, a column is marching toward the enemy in a fast step, making the first salvo (2 first ranks) at 10-20 steps and then charging with the bayonets .
4. Field artillery should be massed in the batteries concentrating their fire on the intended breakthrough points rather then being spread along the whole front. The main caliber of the field artillery must be 6- and 8-pounders with the increased number of the half-pud howitzers as soon as they become available. Both guns carriages and ammunition carts must have the iron axels and the carriages must be made out of a good quality oak. In the case of the enemy’s attack the field cannons should hold their fire until enemy is within 50 steps after which fire, preferably, grapeshot.
5. Cavalry must use every opportunity to attack sword in hand in the close squadron-based formations and to chase enemy on a full gallop within battlefield. The commanders must maintain cohesion of their units and be able to turn them back of and when needed.
6. In a battle army is firming two lines, either in the lines or in the columns, as appropriate, with the cavalry on the flanks. As much as it is possible, a reserve of infantry and cavalry must be held behind these two lines.
7. For the future, it was recommended to strengthen a regiment by adding the 3rd battalion (either by rearranging the existing regiments or by adding the new soldiers).
To a great surprise of both Sheremetev and Weide, the proposals got a speedy confirmation with them even getting a pat on the back for caring about the state interests [6]. What was of at least equal importance, it got the brand new 6-pound guns and half-pud howitzers. As an extra “bonus” (of so far unknown value) it got a newly-promoted (for the merits still unknown) lieutenant-general Alexander Menshikov in charge of 3 dragoon regiments which he, presumably, personally trained. Being a wise man, Sheremetev sincerely greeted a new subordinate, congratulated him on the excellent condition of his troops and prepared himself to be using his influence for getting whatever is going to be necessary for his army which, after receiving reinforcements included 17 infantry regiments (approximately 20,000), 12 cavalry regiments (10,000) and 60 pieces of the filed artillery (not counting the regimental guns): 40 6-pounders and 20 howitzers.
With that force, accompanied by 10,000 Cossacks [7], after receiving the news of Charles’ march to Warsaw, Sheremetev marched forward to Lutsk on the Styr River. Charles did not bother to inform the ally about his future plans but, to be fair, he did not disclose these plans to his own generals either. Anyway, this move, together with the Cossack activities on the South, was limiting August’s freedom of a maneuver and shortening distance between the allied armies.
________
[1] Unlike Inflanty Polskie, conquest of which was a purely opportunistic move and which (demagoguery aside) could be easily used as a bargaining chip if need arises, Polotsk-Witebsk area was politically important because, as far as the Russians were concerned, it belonged to the category of the “lost ancestry territories”.
[2] Officially, as an expanded Hetmanate but Peter had no intention of making the Hetmanate powerful enough to becoming too independent for Peter’s taste. However, there was no need to put a cart ahead of the horse and he did not openly disapprove a formal unification of both banks. Of course, the fortresses taken by the rebels received the Russian garrisons and the prominent Cossack personages had been quietly getting all kinds of the carrots from the Tsar but this was neither here nor there because without the Russian regular army rebellion would be defeated and distribution of the awards was a sing of Tsar’s approval.
[3] Which, of course, did not prevent Peter from declaring some of them to be the significant victories with the major celebrations in Moscow (as soon as at least few standards had been captured, the celebration followed).
[4] Physically, because there is no need for the extensive fencing lessons (needed for the sword) to teach a soldier to stuck bayonet into the opponent’s belly (in the Napoleonic army there was no special training for bayonet fighting and the same goes for the Russian army of that period even the bayonet charges were something like its fetish) and psychologically because an opponent is usually scared of a possibility of getting a bayonet in his belly. 😉
[5] A battalion had 8 platoons so if you number them 1 - 8 from left to right, the line is converted into a column as following: 4 and 5 remain where they are, 3,2,1 are getting behind 4 (in that order) and 6,7,8 behind 5. Conversion from column to line is done in a reverse order, forming if a square is also a relatively simple exercise ending with 2 platoons on each side.
[6] Based upon information that he was getting, Peter already planned the changes and Weide’s known ability to formulate things saved him a lot of a boring paperwork.
While Charles, August, the Lithuanians and the Poles had been quite busy with fighting, diplomacy, dances and drinking, Sheremetev’s army, after leaving few regiments to garrison Inflanty Polskie, was slowly moving South keeping close to the Russian border. Polotck and Witebsk had been taken without noticeable problems, the garrisons left securin and march to the South continued with the reinforcements from Smolensk joining the army. Fotmally, the goal was to secure the Right Bank Ukraine (on which the anti-Polish Cossack rebellion was going on) for Russia [2]. So by the time Charles reached Warsaw Sheremetev was in the Polish Kiew Woiewodship with his headquarters established in Zhytomyr.
March to the South involved quite a few encounters with the Lithuanian and Saxon forces and while they had been reasonably small [3], they produced a food for the very serious thoughts, which were putting some doubts upon the adopted military system:
1. Stress on the 3-pounders as the main caliber was dictated mostly by the cannon’s weight and easiness of transportation. By all practical means, unless present in really large numbers (which created its own problems with transportation), effect of their fire was quite low. The heavier 6- and 8-pounders produced a much greater effect and, with the improved “Bruce System”, their weight dropped to a quite manageable.
2. The enforced line tactics was just fine as long as the main goal was to train soldiers to march in formation and shoot by command. But after these two goals had been achieved, its practical application, especially against the Polish/Lithuanian cavalry proved to be quite inefficient, especially in combination with a cavalry ordered to do pretty much the same: to stay (and even dismount) and shoot. Of course, the enemy's attacks had been repelled with a reasonable ease (which was good) but also with the minimal losses caused to the enemy (which was not good at all) and with an enormous amount of a gunpowder and lead being wasted (Peter liked to count money). Not to mention that forming a line when the enemy’s cavalry suddenly charges from a nearby forest was not always possible. With the Saxons both sides had been forming the lines so any element of a surprise had been lost. Both sides had been firing into the whole wide world starting from the maximum distance and slowly marching toward each other stopping for recharging the muskets. The Saxon cavalry was attacking in caracole style, shooting the pistols and wheeling around (causing minimal losses) so the Russian dragoons standing and firing their muskets were producing a slightly greater damage. Most often , this circus had been won by the Russians due to the greater numbers of infantry, cavalry and artillery pieces. The outgunned Saxon commander would order a retreat and victorious Russians would hold the battlefield because the existing regulations explicitly forbade any energetic activities out of fear that the order would be lost giving the enemy an opportunity to counter-attack.
3. Bayonet was to be used exclusively as a defensive weapon even if the experience of storming the fortified positions demonstrated its high effectiveness as an offensive weapon both physically and psychologically [4].
4. On few occasions commanders of the separately marching units started making a virtue out of the necessity. Instead of spending a lot of time forming a proper line with the cavalry on the flanks and artillery at the front, they were hastily forming a battalion column out of the infantry marching by the platoons. With a very moderate training rearrangement was taking few minutes and the enemy was facing a column of 12 in-depth, 50 at the front with the guns on the flanks and between the columns and cavalry in reserve. This was more than enough for repelling charges of the Lithuanian irregulars and commanders had an excuse of being forced to act in an emergency situation.
Sheremetev was not some kind of a military genius or a visionary but he was an intelligent and experienced general with a serious advantage over his Western colleagues: he was not raised within a framework saying that the things must be done only in a certain way and that everything else is wrong. He adopted Peter’s system because his duty was to obey the royal orders, because it looked logical and because it was backed by the authority of “Western experience”. But now he found himself in a reality in which system seemingly did not work well and required adjustments. His conclusions had been strengthened by the ongoing Swedish experience and, to his surprise, he found a major supporter in colonel Weide, author of the existing regulations. Actually, this should not be a surprise at all. Weide was a honest and competent officer. Peter assigned to him a task of reviewing the Western military practices and based upon them to produce regulations for making Russian army “Western”, which he did. Now he served as a brigade commander in Sheremetev’s army and in this capacity getting a new experience, which he was analyzing with the same results as his commander. Together they composed a set of proposals which was sent to Peter for the consideration.
In doing so, both of them had been facing a complicated task of presenting their ideas to Peter in such a way that:
(a) They will not result in an immediate fit of wrath with their immediate dismissal and, quite probably execution for treason or some other crime involving a torture with the following slow and very painful death (like breaking on a wheel followed by a slow quartering).
(b) Make them convincing enough to be adopted.
(c) Get the necessary materiel (as far as artillery was invokved).
On a positive side they had the following factors:
(a) Sheremetev’s high prestige won for “the return of ancestral lands” and mutually-satisfactory cooperation with Charles.
(b) Weide’s own prestige as an expert in the existing methods of war: if he found some problem with his own regulations and offers improvements (even at risk of Peter’s displeasure) than it makes sense to look at these proposals.
(c) Peter’s love of the artillery and a big “boom”: hidden in the proposals was a compliment to the artillery reform that he ordered and to the Peter’s close personal friend, Jacob Bruce, whom he put in charge of it. So, at least Bruce’s cooperation could be expected.
(d) Unbeknown to them, they had a major backer in person of Alexander Menshikov who was itching fir a military glory (and had been reoeatedky asking Peter for some kind of a field command) and by his nature was inclined to the aggressive actions.
(e) What they also did not know, was that Peter had been regularly receiving detailed reports from Michael Golitsyn, whom he assigned to Charles and who was extremely enthusiastic about the Swedish practices, while on the other side if an equation the Swedish officers, borrowed from Charles to train Russian troops, had been openly critical about the prevailing “European” practices and never missed an occasion to rub noses of their German colleagues into the Swedish victories over the Saxons, who were highly regarded for their skills in these practices.
(f) As a “moral justification” Peter’s own sentence in the Regulations had been used: “a commander should not hold to the Regulations as a blind man holds to a wall”.
So “Sheremetev-Weide program” was presented as an expansion of the existing Regulations.
1. The line 3-in depth, firing by the platoons remained the main battle formation. Firing should start when enemy is within 50 steps or even closer.
2. At the discretion of the commanders, it was allowed (when appropriately) to use battalion “column from the center” [5] as a battle formation with the platoon columns being a standard marching formation.
3. When attacking, a column is marching toward the enemy in a fast step, making the first salvo (2 first ranks) at 10-20 steps and then charging with the bayonets .
4. Field artillery should be massed in the batteries concentrating their fire on the intended breakthrough points rather then being spread along the whole front. The main caliber of the field artillery must be 6- and 8-pounders with the increased number of the half-pud howitzers as soon as they become available. Both guns carriages and ammunition carts must have the iron axels and the carriages must be made out of a good quality oak. In the case of the enemy’s attack the field cannons should hold their fire until enemy is within 50 steps after which fire, preferably, grapeshot.
5. Cavalry must use every opportunity to attack sword in hand in the close squadron-based formations and to chase enemy on a full gallop within battlefield. The commanders must maintain cohesion of their units and be able to turn them back of and when needed.
6. In a battle army is firming two lines, either in the lines or in the columns, as appropriate, with the cavalry on the flanks. As much as it is possible, a reserve of infantry and cavalry must be held behind these two lines.
7. For the future, it was recommended to strengthen a regiment by adding the 3rd battalion (either by rearranging the existing regiments or by adding the new soldiers).
To a great surprise of both Sheremetev and Weide, the proposals got a speedy confirmation with them even getting a pat on the back for caring about the state interests [6]. What was of at least equal importance, it got the brand new 6-pound guns and half-pud howitzers. As an extra “bonus” (of so far unknown value) it got a newly-promoted (for the merits still unknown) lieutenant-general Alexander Menshikov in charge of 3 dragoon regiments which he, presumably, personally trained. Being a wise man, Sheremetev sincerely greeted a new subordinate, congratulated him on the excellent condition of his troops and prepared himself to be using his influence for getting whatever is going to be necessary for his army which, after receiving reinforcements included 17 infantry regiments (approximately 20,000), 12 cavalry regiments (10,000) and 60 pieces of the filed artillery (not counting the regimental guns): 40 6-pounders and 20 howitzers.
With that force, accompanied by 10,000 Cossacks [7], after receiving the news of Charles’ march to Warsaw, Sheremetev marched forward to Lutsk on the Styr River. Charles did not bother to inform the ally about his future plans but, to be fair, he did not disclose these plans to his own generals either. Anyway, this move, together with the Cossack activities on the South, was limiting August’s freedom of a maneuver and shortening distance between the allied armies.
________
[1] Unlike Inflanty Polskie, conquest of which was a purely opportunistic move and which (demagoguery aside) could be easily used as a bargaining chip if need arises, Polotsk-Witebsk area was politically important because, as far as the Russians were concerned, it belonged to the category of the “lost ancestry territories”.
[2] Officially, as an expanded Hetmanate but Peter had no intention of making the Hetmanate powerful enough to becoming too independent for Peter’s taste. However, there was no need to put a cart ahead of the horse and he did not openly disapprove a formal unification of both banks. Of course, the fortresses taken by the rebels received the Russian garrisons and the prominent Cossack personages had been quietly getting all kinds of the carrots from the Tsar but this was neither here nor there because without the Russian regular army rebellion would be defeated and distribution of the awards was a sing of Tsar’s approval.
[3] Which, of course, did not prevent Peter from declaring some of them to be the significant victories with the major celebrations in Moscow (as soon as at least few standards had been captured, the celebration followed).
[4] Physically, because there is no need for the extensive fencing lessons (needed for the sword) to teach a soldier to stuck bayonet into the opponent’s belly (in the Napoleonic army there was no special training for bayonet fighting and the same goes for the Russian army of that period even the bayonet charges were something like its fetish) and psychologically because an opponent is usually scared of a possibility of getting a bayonet in his belly. 😉
[5] A battalion had 8 platoons so if you number them 1 - 8 from left to right, the line is converted into a column as following: 4 and 5 remain where they are, 3,2,1 are getting behind 4 (in that order) and 6,7,8 behind 5. Conversion from column to line is done in a reverse order, forming if a square is also a relatively simple exercise ending with 2 platoons on each side.
[6] Based upon information that he was getting, Peter already planned the changes and Weide’s known ability to formulate things saved him a lot of a boring paperwork.
Kliszow
14. Kliszow
After Steinbock and Moerner, who marched all the way from Wilno, finally joined him at Kielce, Charles had approximately 16,000 on paper, out of which approximately 12,000 (8,000 infantry and 4 cavalry) had been fit for battle, which he considered quite enough for beating his opponent.
August assembled his Saxon troops and Polish crown army, total up to 34, 000 on paper but in a reality between 21 and 24,000 [1] in a camp located on the heights near Kliszow. The camp was well-secured by the River Nida and a swamp on the left and swamp and a forest at the front. Part of the artillery had been set on the height in front of the camp [2].
The Swedish camp was on other side of the forest and the Saxon commanders, quite reasonably, [3] did not expect any unpleasant surprises and of course had been rightfully irritated when at noon of July 8th they saw Swedes emerging from the forest [4].
The available descriptions (which are seemingly using the same source) are saying (if they are bothering to say anything on the subject) that:
(a) only after the Swedes got out of the forest the Saxon army started “hastily” form a battle line; surely the superbly trained troops because they managed to have all their troops lined between two streams, to put artillery in front of their center and to have it covered by chevaux de frise; not to mention that the Poles had time to put their troops in a position as well. One can only imagine what they would be able to do if not in a “haste”. 😂
and
(b) only after he got out the forest, Charles “discovered” that he can attack only enemy’s right flank; is this supposed to mean that he did not have a clue where he is going?
Well, let’s putting these mysteries aside because they are nor really relevant.
*****************************************************************************
Short interlude before the mutual licking starts
From the fact that Charles did not excessively bother to keep the allied army informed about his whereabouts and plans, this does not mean that information was not exchanged at all. From time to time both sides had been sending each other dispatches and, anyway, Charles’ orders to Steinbock and Moerner became known to the Russian troops operating in coordination with them in Lithuania. Michael Golitsyn also sent a dispatch as soon as he learned about Charles’ plan to march from Warsaw on Krakow and eventually even Charles himself sent a message informing Sheremetev about his decision to finish August once and forever. Taking into an account that Peter always was taking a good care of having well “compensated” informers in the PLC, it was not a problem at all to find out where the crown army is going to be assembled and to deduce everything else. So by the time Charles and his Swedes had been emerging out of the forest, the vanguard of Shetemetev’s army was few kilometers from Lipnik.
*****************************************************************************
After getting out of the woods and figuring out that he led his army into a lousy situation [5] Charles started marching it to the left under artillery fire and at 2PM ( 2 more hours spent on what?) launched two attacks on the Poles during which Frederick IV, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp was killed and the advance halted. The Polish hussars counterattacked, broke the Swedish cavalry but had been stopped by the infantry. Charles took personal charge and was ready to launch the 3rd attack when he saw the Poles suddenly panicking and fleeing from a battlefield smashing the Saxon right flank in the process. Cannonade in the enemy’s rear and right flank made it obvious that vanguard of the Russian army (led by Alexander Menshikov) [6] arrived at Wymyslow and Kije, putting the Poles between two fires and cutting one of two enemy’s retreat routes.
Charles immediately took advantage of the situation attacking already shaken Fleming’s troops with his own cavalry and infantry and the Russian cavalry of general Bouer while the cavalry of general Ronne (under Menshikov’s personal leadership, of course 😉 ) rode further trying to capture the Saxon guns on the heights.
Rehnskiold on the Swedish right was still having a hard time fighting off a much greater force of Steinau but the better quality of the Swedish troops was gradually winning over the numeric odds.
Schulenburg’s infantry in the center retreated but still was holding the high ground in front of the camp and holding open a retreat route through Kliszow but after arriving Russian infantry of the Sheremetev’s main force reached the Saxon camp, he sent a messenger to Steinau informing him that a battle was lost. Most of Steinau’s cavalry managed to get across the Nida River but a considerable part of Schulenburg’s infantry was cut off when the Russians reached Klissov and, being attacked on all sides by the Swedes and Russians, surrendered. Schulenburg was lucky to get across Nida and so was August.
The battle was over. The Saxons lost up to 5,000 prisoners and almost 3,000 dead, 85 standards and banners, all artillery and the camp with August’s personal baggage and a war chest. August with tgecleftovers of his army retreated to Sandomierz but Hetman Lubomirsky with the crown army did not follow, presumably due to the influence of Cardinal Radziewsky who was actively intriguing against August.
While Charles (and perhaps the Swedish officers as well) firmly held an opinion that he would win this battle without a help, he could not deny that the help did arrive in a timely fashion and that, unlike crossing Dvina, it was direct and quite substantial. The ally was there, quality of his troops was good and benefit undeniable. He wrote a personal letter to Peter expressing the due gratitude and personally thanked Sheremetev. Sheremetev, in his report, explicitly underscored the brilliant performance of lieutenant-general Aleksander Menshikov to which Peter responded by promoting his favorite to the general of cavalry and awarding Sheremetev with the order of St. Andrew and 50,000 rubles. The lesser personages were not forgotten as well.
Everybody was happy, at least for a while. Except for those who had been defeated, of course. 😂
__________
[1] “The Saxon army in the battle had an official paperstrength of 22,230 men with 46 artillery pieces, but in reality only between 15,000 and 18,000 men (more than half being cavalry) were fit for combat, due to famine, disease and exhaustion. The Polish–Lithuanian force had an official paperstrength of about 12,000 men[1] with 4 or 5 artillery pieces. However, at least a third of these were civilians and not combat personnel, making the total number between 6,000 and 8,000 men, mainly cavalry.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kliszów#
[2] Absence of a scale on the plans of that battle (or actually a single plans which all sites are reproducing) does not allow to figure out the distance between the camp and Saxon front and to make any guess about wisdom of this placement. Probably we can make an assumption that the Saxon commanders were competent enough not to place artillery in such a way that it could hit only their own soldiers if the battle happens. 😉
[3] No sane general knowledgeable of the “rules of war” would dare to attack such a good position because if you are doing so you are not sane and if you are not sane then who would appoint you to command of an army? The obvious fault in this logic was that of you are a king, nobody appoints you (Hans Delbruck formulated this better but I’m too lazy to search for a precise quote) . 😉
[4] Again, an absence of a scale is really annoying. The Swedes started their march at 9AM and if the forest is as small as it looks on a plan, why did it take them 3 hours to march through it? Did they stop for a picnic under the trees? If you look at the map of a battle, the distance between Kije and Kokot is approximately 1km and a distance betwee Kokot and Kliszow is few hundred meters more. Which makes Saxon-Polish front approximately 3km and a distance from the Swedish camp (through the forest) to their initial position less than 2km only a small part of which was forest. Distance between the Saxon artillery position at the rear and their front is approximately 500 meters. Which excludes a grapeshot and, AFAIK, by the end of the XVIII the range of 3-, 6-pounders was 600-700 meters and a practical range of the 12-pounders 800-1,000 meters. If the ranges of the early XVIII were approximately the same, then the approaching enemy could be hit only when he cones very close to the Saxon positions.
[5] Without starting with getting into as deep s—t as possible you can’t attain a real glory afterwards. Some allowances are usually made for Nappy but as for everybody else the rule holds down to the individual level: look at a typical Hollywood fist-, sword-, <whatever> fight: the hero starts with being beaten into the pulp after which the bad guy, instead of finishing the business, starts making speeches, takes a nap, goes to take a haircut thus giving the hero a time to recuperate and to win the encounter. So, what is the glory if Charles just got put of the woods at the right place p.n. enemy’s flank, kicked the Poles with everything he had and then just proceeded with kicking the Saxons one piece at a time advancing at 90 degrees to their front and using an overwhelming force at each moment: they are squeezed between two streams and can’t built a meaningful front to oppose him. Where is the drama? 😢
[6] The whole reason for him volunteering for this campaign was a wish to make a name not just as Peter’s favorite but as a military commander. Actually, in OTL he proved to be a good cavalry general. Getting a visible role in the important battle was an important step toward this goal and Sheremetev did not see any reason to get on the bad terms with Peter’s favorite. So the request for vanguard command was granted and, just in case, Menshikov was provided with two experienced and very good subordinate cavalry commanders, generals Bauer and Ronne, both of which had been fighting under Sheremetev since the start of the LNW.
After Steinbock and Moerner, who marched all the way from Wilno, finally joined him at Kielce, Charles had approximately 16,000 on paper, out of which approximately 12,000 (8,000 infantry and 4 cavalry) had been fit for battle, which he considered quite enough for beating his opponent.
August assembled his Saxon troops and Polish crown army, total up to 34, 000 on paper but in a reality between 21 and 24,000 [1] in a camp located on the heights near Kliszow. The camp was well-secured by the River Nida and a swamp on the left and swamp and a forest at the front. Part of the artillery had been set on the height in front of the camp [2].
The Swedish camp was on other side of the forest and the Saxon commanders, quite reasonably, [3] did not expect any unpleasant surprises and of course had been rightfully irritated when at noon of July 8th they saw Swedes emerging from the forest [4].
The available descriptions (which are seemingly using the same source) are saying (if they are bothering to say anything on the subject) that:
(a) only after the Swedes got out of the forest the Saxon army started “hastily” form a battle line; surely the superbly trained troops because they managed to have all their troops lined between two streams, to put artillery in front of their center and to have it covered by chevaux de frise; not to mention that the Poles had time to put their troops in a position as well. One can only imagine what they would be able to do if not in a “haste”. 😂
and
(b) only after he got out the forest, Charles “discovered” that he can attack only enemy’s right flank; is this supposed to mean that he did not have a clue where he is going?
Well, let’s putting these mysteries aside because they are nor really relevant.
*****************************************************************************
Short interlude before the mutual licking starts
From the fact that Charles did not excessively bother to keep the allied army informed about his whereabouts and plans, this does not mean that information was not exchanged at all. From time to time both sides had been sending each other dispatches and, anyway, Charles’ orders to Steinbock and Moerner became known to the Russian troops operating in coordination with them in Lithuania. Michael Golitsyn also sent a dispatch as soon as he learned about Charles’ plan to march from Warsaw on Krakow and eventually even Charles himself sent a message informing Sheremetev about his decision to finish August once and forever. Taking into an account that Peter always was taking a good care of having well “compensated” informers in the PLC, it was not a problem at all to find out where the crown army is going to be assembled and to deduce everything else. So by the time Charles and his Swedes had been emerging out of the forest, the vanguard of Shetemetev’s army was few kilometers from Lipnik.
*****************************************************************************
After getting out of the woods and figuring out that he led his army into a lousy situation [5] Charles started marching it to the left under artillery fire and at 2PM ( 2 more hours spent on what?) launched two attacks on the Poles during which Frederick IV, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp was killed and the advance halted. The Polish hussars counterattacked, broke the Swedish cavalry but had been stopped by the infantry. Charles took personal charge and was ready to launch the 3rd attack when he saw the Poles suddenly panicking and fleeing from a battlefield smashing the Saxon right flank in the process. Cannonade in the enemy’s rear and right flank made it obvious that vanguard of the Russian army (led by Alexander Menshikov) [6] arrived at Wymyslow and Kije, putting the Poles between two fires and cutting one of two enemy’s retreat routes.
Charles immediately took advantage of the situation attacking already shaken Fleming’s troops with his own cavalry and infantry and the Russian cavalry of general Bouer while the cavalry of general Ronne (under Menshikov’s personal leadership, of course 😉 ) rode further trying to capture the Saxon guns on the heights.
Rehnskiold on the Swedish right was still having a hard time fighting off a much greater force of Steinau but the better quality of the Swedish troops was gradually winning over the numeric odds.
Schulenburg’s infantry in the center retreated but still was holding the high ground in front of the camp and holding open a retreat route through Kliszow but after arriving Russian infantry of the Sheremetev’s main force reached the Saxon camp, he sent a messenger to Steinau informing him that a battle was lost. Most of Steinau’s cavalry managed to get across the Nida River but a considerable part of Schulenburg’s infantry was cut off when the Russians reached Klissov and, being attacked on all sides by the Swedes and Russians, surrendered. Schulenburg was lucky to get across Nida and so was August.
The battle was over. The Saxons lost up to 5,000 prisoners and almost 3,000 dead, 85 standards and banners, all artillery and the camp with August’s personal baggage and a war chest. August with tgecleftovers of his army retreated to Sandomierz but Hetman Lubomirsky with the crown army did not follow, presumably due to the influence of Cardinal Radziewsky who was actively intriguing against August.
While Charles (and perhaps the Swedish officers as well) firmly held an opinion that he would win this battle without a help, he could not deny that the help did arrive in a timely fashion and that, unlike crossing Dvina, it was direct and quite substantial. The ally was there, quality of his troops was good and benefit undeniable. He wrote a personal letter to Peter expressing the due gratitude and personally thanked Sheremetev. Sheremetev, in his report, explicitly underscored the brilliant performance of lieutenant-general Aleksander Menshikov to which Peter responded by promoting his favorite to the general of cavalry and awarding Sheremetev with the order of St. Andrew and 50,000 rubles. The lesser personages were not forgotten as well.
Everybody was happy, at least for a while. Except for those who had been defeated, of course. 😂
__________
[1] “The Saxon army in the battle had an official paperstrength of 22,230 men with 46 artillery pieces, but in reality only between 15,000 and 18,000 men (more than half being cavalry) were fit for combat, due to famine, disease and exhaustion. The Polish–Lithuanian force had an official paperstrength of about 12,000 men[1] with 4 or 5 artillery pieces. However, at least a third of these were civilians and not combat personnel, making the total number between 6,000 and 8,000 men, mainly cavalry.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kliszów#
[2] Absence of a scale on the plans of that battle (or actually a single plans which all sites are reproducing) does not allow to figure out the distance between the camp and Saxon front and to make any guess about wisdom of this placement. Probably we can make an assumption that the Saxon commanders were competent enough not to place artillery in such a way that it could hit only their own soldiers if the battle happens. 😉
[3] No sane general knowledgeable of the “rules of war” would dare to attack such a good position because if you are doing so you are not sane and if you are not sane then who would appoint you to command of an army? The obvious fault in this logic was that of you are a king, nobody appoints you (Hans Delbruck formulated this better but I’m too lazy to search for a precise quote) . 😉
[4] Again, an absence of a scale is really annoying. The Swedes started their march at 9AM and if the forest is as small as it looks on a plan, why did it take them 3 hours to march through it? Did they stop for a picnic under the trees? If you look at the map of a battle, the distance between Kije and Kokot is approximately 1km and a distance betwee Kokot and Kliszow is few hundred meters more. Which makes Saxon-Polish front approximately 3km and a distance from the Swedish camp (through the forest) to their initial position less than 2km only a small part of which was forest. Distance between the Saxon artillery position at the rear and their front is approximately 500 meters. Which excludes a grapeshot and, AFAIK, by the end of the XVIII the range of 3-, 6-pounders was 600-700 meters and a practical range of the 12-pounders 800-1,000 meters. If the ranges of the early XVIII were approximately the same, then the approaching enemy could be hit only when he cones very close to the Saxon positions.
[5] Without starting with getting into as deep s—t as possible you can’t attain a real glory afterwards. Some allowances are usually made for Nappy but as for everybody else the rule holds down to the individual level: look at a typical Hollywood fist-, sword-, <whatever> fight: the hero starts with being beaten into the pulp after which the bad guy, instead of finishing the business, starts making speeches, takes a nap, goes to take a haircut thus giving the hero a time to recuperate and to win the encounter. So, what is the glory if Charles just got put of the woods at the right place p.n. enemy’s flank, kicked the Poles with everything he had and then just proceeded with kicking the Saxons one piece at a time advancing at 90 degrees to their front and using an overwhelming force at each moment: they are squeezed between two streams and can’t built a meaningful front to oppose him. Where is the drama? 😢
[6] The whole reason for him volunteering for this campaign was a wish to make a name not just as Peter’s favorite but as a military commander. Actually, in OTL he proved to be a good cavalry general. Getting a visible role in the important battle was an important step toward this goal and Sheremetev did not see any reason to get on the bad terms with Peter’s favorite. So the request for vanguard command was granted and, just in case, Menshikov was provided with two experienced and very good subordinate cavalry commanders, generals Bauer and Ronne, both of which had been fighting under Sheremetev since the start of the LNW.
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Excellent update.
OTL, the Swedish cavalry reformed after the Hussars bounced on the Swedish infantry, and was instrumental in driving the Crown Army from the field.
With the Saxon army devastated instead of able to retreat as in OTL, will Karl and Shetemetev invade Saxony to force a peace on August?
By the way, it is Stenbock, not Steinbock.
Swedish artillery is listed with this range with "half-heavy shot", ie gunpowder charge weighing half of what the cannonball would weigh, which was the normal charge.
Edit: These ranges are for level barrels, you could fire with an elevated barrel and get about twice the range, but that would reduce the accuracy even further. Massive cannonballs could of course also bounce or skip ahead beyond this range.
If using "geschwinda" shots (available for 3pdr and 6pdr guns), the rate of fire was increased to up to 12-14 shots per minute (but realistically 6-10) but range was reduced by 30-50% due to the wax and paper cartridge taking up quite a bit of the space for gunpowder, meaning less charge. In 1711, Sweden introduced hollow cannonballs which could travel further, but of course had less impact energy due to lower weight. These probably account for the increase in the 1720 range. The 3pdr:s were probably focused on being lighter rather than having more range, explaining the reduction in raneg 1720. Probably a shorter barrel. The weight of a standard gun (barrel only) is listed as 1 700, 910 and 460kg respectively, but there were guns (regimental 3pdr:s) that were lighter still.
OTL, the Swedish cavalry reformed after the Hussars bounced on the Swedish infantry, and was instrumental in driving the Crown Army from the field.
With the Saxon army devastated instead of able to retreat as in OTL, will Karl and Shetemetev invade Saxony to force a peace on August?
By the way, it is Stenbock, not Steinbock.
Swedish artillery is listed with this range with "half-heavy shot", ie gunpowder charge weighing half of what the cannonball would weigh, which was the normal charge.
| Gun | Range 1690 (m) | Range 1700 (m) | Range 1707 (m) | Range 1720 (m) |
| 12pdr | 525-600 | 525-600 | 600-675 | 750 |
| 6pdr | 375 | 450-525 | 525 | 600 |
| 3pdr | 225-300 | 225-300 | 410-450 | 375 |
Edit: These ranges are for level barrels, you could fire with an elevated barrel and get about twice the range, but that would reduce the accuracy even further. Massive cannonballs could of course also bounce or skip ahead beyond this range.
If using "geschwinda" shots (available for 3pdr and 6pdr guns), the rate of fire was increased to up to 12-14 shots per minute (but realistically 6-10) but range was reduced by 30-50% due to the wax and paper cartridge taking up quite a bit of the space for gunpowder, meaning less charge. In 1711, Sweden introduced hollow cannonballs which could travel further, but of course had less impact energy due to lower weight. These probably account for the increase in the 1720 range. The 3pdr:s were probably focused on being lighter rather than having more range, explaining the reduction in raneg 1720. Probably a shorter barrel. The weight of a standard gun (barrel only) is listed as 1 700, 910 and 460kg respectively, but there were guns (regimental 3pdr:s) that were lighter still.
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I wonder if due to butterflies and Peter's focus towards the south, if the last scion of the Comnenian Dynasty might end up serving the Russians once more. It would an interesting small buttefly to see John Comnenos getting married to russian aristocracy instead of becoming a monk and continue his line. Imagine a boyar family claiming to be descendants of the Comnenians.
I'll try to go through my sources on the battle this evening and see what I can find. I got several books that include detailed maps on it.
If Peter rather than Charles does it as 'brotherly help' that nets him more Polish Territory (maybe with a load of swedish officers and troops strictly in Russian service, to help out) invading Saxony does not violate the Treaty of Wesphalia, something which IIRC was one of the reasons that gave Charles pause for a few years...
On the Danzig question I agree that making Royal Prussia Swedish, keeping Danzig an unconquered 'free city' that pays some fat tribute but doesn't get occupied is the best move (unless I can enlist/infiltrate a fifth column operating inside which seems very unlikely). If I were Charles, I would consolidate my position in the PLC, both the areas partitioned and those under a puppet ruler. Then, once the War of Spanish Succession starts (or to be precise really gets going) begin my own separate war with Prussia aiming to take Ducal Prussia and all Pomerania for Sweden plus lop off other parts of Prussia for those I might befriend in the HRE while making implied threats to join France and march on Vienna to keep the Emperor from doing anything antagonistic.
Prussia first, then Denmark.
I am sure you have your plans for Peter.
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To be honest, without the OTL disaster of the GNW, it seems to me that Sweden and Brandenburg-Prussia would be natural enemies. Brandenburg is on the rise after the reign of the Great Elector. Getting a crown usually alters the self-image of monarchs and elites. As long as the Swedes hold Stettin, then Berlin cannot get its place in the sun. Their economy will be depended upon swedish goodwill. And commerce through Stettin is not important enough for the Maritine Powers to intervene if Sweden closes the port to prussian trade.
Moreover, we know that the Swedes would be thrilled to seize Danzig and its Customs Office. However, such move would be an anathema to Berlin.
Swedish ambitions in Prussia have a precedent since Karl Gustav tried to have sovereignty over the whole Prussia, rulling the Royal part as a swedish province and turn the Ducal part into a vassal. He failed. Yet the circumstances that had him fail, that power balance, is now temporarily broken.
Therefore, the King in Prussia has either to accept to play second fiddle to the Regional Hegemon or to become a foe of Sweden. In the age of mercantilism and royal prestige, I think this is an analysis that the Swedes could do as well. Therefore, I think they could strike when provided the distraction of the WoSS. After all success (Courland and Polish Livonia) usually increases ambition rather than the opposite. Carolus Rex was an ambitious monarch and warlord. In the long history of his kingdom, how many monarchs had an opportunity to establish a dominium maris baltici ? How many monarchs have the opportunity to best illustrious ancestors?
As far as Stenbock is involved, my fault: did not check all autocorrections that the editor did aggravated by the tendency of putting in the letters which I did not press. Progress is a good thing but in a moderation. 😢
Thanks for the great data on the artillery ranges. Approximately the same I found for the Petrian artillery. Which means that the Saxon artillery on the heights, even if it was the heavy one, was pretty much useless because for the aimed shooting it was too far from the front and for a barrage fire there was too few of it. Well, honestly, the whole Saxon-Polish disposition in OTL is widely open for the criticism because each segment was acting in isolation or not acting at all (as infantry in the center or Fleming’s cavalry). To misquote Munnich, they “could not decide if they are fish or meat”. Why Fleming did not support the Poles and why Schulenburg passively waited until ha was almost surrounded? Why Steinau launched an isolated attack instead of taking care of the whole battle? After all, he was the highest-ranking Saxon general.
I’m working upon the further allied strategy (😂). With a big part of his army gone and with no money (war chest is being lost and there is no OTL “sugar daddy” willing to commit big amounts of money on keeping August and the Poles fighting) so he (and probably the Poles as well) is ready for peace. Peter at that point may opt for peace as well (or perhaps a little bit more fighting experience for his troops) but Charles is problematic. Any idea, what can convince him to agree to the peace at this specific point? Well, the Poles, potentially, can be a problem as well even if just due to their inability to come to the consensus on anything and a complete political chaos, which exists at the moment.
Thanks but don’t waste too much time on that: I ended up using the Google maps to find a distance between two settlements on the battle plan and this allowed to figure out the rest so the only serious “unknown” is a real size of the forest through which Charles marched. On the battle plan, which is being returned by Google search (no matter how I was trying to twist, it is the same schema), it looks too small for spending 3 hours on crossing it but, anyway, it seemingly took at least 2 hours between finishing the crossing and the first Swedish attack. Taking into an account that, with only 4 guns (BTW, did Charles had only them or were the only ones that the Swedes managed to get through the forest?) Napoleon’s style preliminary barrage is out of question, I can only assume that even the fastest generals of that period had been rather slow in their movements. 😉 Another question is why Charles bothered with all that forest exercise if he could march his troops from the camp to Wloszczowice and from it to Wymyslow masking his march by the forest and ending at the right flank and the rear of the Polish troops thus “playing Fritz at Leuthen”?
So you are basically advocating a preemptive turning of the LNW into the different version of the GNW. 🤗
Of course, doing what you recommending involves certain dangers:
1. Prussia has an excellent army of at least 40,000 and only a part of it is engaged in the WoSS and even these troops can be recalled back home. So this is not going to be a simple walkout.
2. Attack on Prussia means a brand new war which can be joined by Denmark and Saxony.
3. The maritime powers want a balance on the Baltic and may support Denmark just not to let Sweden to disrupt it too much even by annexing the whole Royal Prussia. BTW, the Prussian Prussia is now independent from the PLC so the vassal schema is not going to work while a direct annexation of both Polish and Prussian parts is problematic both internationally a d just resources wise: as OTL example of Peter demonstrated, nobody wanted to have a single absolutely dominant power on the Baltic Sea.
4. Prussia wanted Stettin but did Sweden seriously wanted something from Prussia? Something worthy of a big war?
How about a somewhat different approach to the issue? The block Sweden-Russia is being too powerful for Prussia to try any adventures at Sweden expense
This would be interesting but keep in mind that the “boyars” as a class had been dying out being replaced by the “service aristocracy” defined by the Table of the Ranks. Of course, if he holds a prominent position (as seemingly was the chance) and is valued by Peter, he can count upon an advantageous marriage with a member of the Rissian aristocracy. But his ancestry (and one of his descendants) would not be of a real importance as far as position within the Russian Empire is involved: during the XVIII century many of the old aristocratic families faded into a complete obscurity while many of those on the top had very little or not at all in the terms of a pedigree.
Karl marching to Dresden to dictate peace would be one - taking Courland and giving Peter what he wants - Karl would be considering Peter an honourable ally that has shown both dedication and resilience, especially as Shetemetev turned up in the right place at the right time. Karl would want to make peace from a position of strength - but also invite Peter (or his representative) to the negotiations to make sure Russia is not treated like Sweden was at Fontainebleau 1679.
It would be important for Karl that August is not allowed to weasel himself out of the war and the consequences. But if representatives of the Emperor and August (rather than mistresses) showed up and were willing to talk peace and August would admit to starting an unjust war, pay reparations and lose (Polish-Lithunanian) terrain, I think Karl could talk peace - OTL he would not take peace with Peter because he was winning and Peter demanded territory (at least part of Ingria) and then because he kept throwing good money after bad like a desperate poker player. Neither is the case here, and I like to think he would act differently because of the different circumstances.
When it comes to the peace, various Polish-Lithuanian magnates can claim it is not ratified and that the sejm need to vote on it and so on, Sweden and Russia can just take what they got in the peace and let the Poles and Lithuanians quarrel amongst themselves - the szlachta lack the ability to wage an offensive war against another country, so without the Saxonians and King August, they can't really do much.
Sweden and Prussia will certainly have some kind of confrontation on which is the primary protestant power in the Empire, and perhaps even the primary power of northern Europe. The problen with your scenario is that the contemporaries would not see it that way. To Karl, Denmark and perhaps the Emperor are his future enemies. Poland-Lithuania is on the decline, and not even propped up by the 3rd power of the Empire (Saxony) can it be considered a serious threat, as Karl has himself has just experienced. Russia has proven itself a valuable, honourable and worthy ally.
The line of thinking - that this nation might one day overshadow ours, and we need to strangle it in its cradle belongs to the era of nationalism and would not really exist until after the Napoleonic wars -with Bismarck and the unification of Germany as primary examples of this. It would not be in Karl's world view to go after Prussia before it becomes a threat - especially so since he was really, really big on the divine rights of monarchs and that wars needed to be just. He did swear that he would never start a war (nor end one unless in Sweden's favour). To suggest Sweden attack Prussia would be anachronistic and against Karl's character and beliefs. Just as seizing Danzig it would also be against Sweden's medium term interests - as soon as the War of the Spanish Succession is over, people will start looking at Sweden again. And Karl knows this - he learned from his father how dangerous it could be to provoke all your neighbours at the same time.
Besides, as @alexmilman says, the Swedo-Russian block can look dangerous to challenge. Karl can get what he wants - peace, stability, continued strength of Sweden and a good economy without attacking and provoking people. Why should he not? Because we realise that in the long run, when the age of nationalism rolls around, Sweden lacks the population and the resources to be a global power does not mean Karl does, not any other contemporaries, because nationalism is at least 100 years away.