No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)

Here's an article looking at the economic history of the Russian Empire:https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/catching-and-falling-behind-russian-economic-growth-1690s-1880s
Very interesting article even if not too surprising.

Personally, I have one big question about the used criteria, GDP. This is purely my dilettantish problem. Here is a definition “A comprehensive measure of U.S. economic activity. GDP measures the value of the final goods and services produced in the United States (without double counting the intermediate goods and services used up to produce them).” The “US” irrelevant except as a part of the quote.
“Goods” and “services” means, in theory, that a country producing nothing but the “services” (financial, hospitality, trade-related, insurance, etc.) may be valued, based upon GDP, higher than a country producing the vital source materials or having a developed diversified industry just because these “services” are more costly.

In the case in question, sectors like banking and shipping were pretty much absent until 2nd half of the XIX. Costs of the “raw materials” (from grain to iron) was lower by any meaningful criteria than of the luxury items even if I have no idea how much grain Russian landowner would have to sell to buy enough of the French silk flowers to decorate his wife’s ball dress. 😜

Basically, they say Russia was seeing a bit of an upward trend until the 1760s in per capita GDP

I’m not sure based on which data? The taxes were head-based so it probably leaves exports because coast of the domestic product should be close to impossible estimate.
and then until the 1800s saw that actually drop (hum, I wonder what person we call "The Great" ruled from 1762-1796!),

No surprise at all. The exports kept growing but the state expenses grew faster and Russia ended her reign with a huge foreign debt and compromised paper currency. “Great”, just as with PI, was not related to the economy or even wise domestic and foreign policy.

and then stagnated until the 1880s

Wars, absence of the reforms, liberal reforms, wars. Terrible combination.

when it started going up.

“Reactionary reforms”, peace. 😉
Of course its population soared from ~18 million in the 1760s, to 35 million by 1800 to over 100 million by the 1880s so the overall economy grew a lot.

Specific sectors grew a lot, for example iron production and export. Some sectors did not grow too much and some were in a bad state (like machinery production).

But yeah, a Russia under competent rule will be a *lot* stronger by 1800 and then gradually start to pull ahead of the other great powers until eventually it can fairly be called the world's sole superpower.

Hardly, but not need in that: this status assumes a costly and unnecessary meddling in others’ affairs.
[Sorry, I cut off the modern comparisons to avoid discussion of our present state of economy and resulting need to use the expletives. 😜 ]
 
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Interesting , ITTL we also need to take into account that beside overall better management Russia avoided quite a few of costly wars (Great Northern War, 7 year war, various Turkish wars and Napoleonic wars etc).

Generally I believe Russia by now should be 2nd largest economy on the continent excluding the British empire as we are talking about good management that lasted from Peter the great all the way to 1880s , maybe even the largest economy by now .
The important part is that it is generally much more technologically advanced than in OTL. This opens opportunities absent in OTL and lowers dependencies upon the more developed countries.
 
Trial and error method
292. Trial and error method
“Trial and error is a fundamental method of Problem solving. It is characterised by repeated, varied attempts which are continued until success,or until the agent stops trying. Until getting the right answer the problem is repeating through various steps. This type of problem solving is called trial and error method.”
Definition
“Progress through trial and error depends not only on making trials, but on recognizing errors.”
Virginia Postrel
An error does not become a mistake, until you refuse to correct it.”
Orlando A. Battista
“Anyone can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in their error.”
Cicero
“We Russians are in a happy position of impartial witnesses to these [naval] disputes, which are reaching the extreme limits of irritability and causing the most fierce struggle of passions in the press.”
Admiral Butakov
We closely, step by step, followed everything that is being done in foreign admiralties, and there was no invention or improvement in the area of shipbuilding equipment that in one way or another was not immediately made to our property."
Russian Naval Ministry, 1880s
“We can't do experiments in the construction of battleships”
Grand Duke Alexey Alexandrovich (before he became Admiral-General)

Russia. Late 1880s

Going parliamentarian…

As was promised, there were elections into the State Duma of the Russian Empire. The powers of the Duma were determined by the law of February 20, 1886, regulating the order of work of the Duma, and the "Basic State Laws of the Russian Empire". The Duma was elected for 5 years, and the Emperor was granted the right to dissolve it. The Duma could adopt the laws proposed to it by the government, as well as approve the state budget. Between sessions, the emperor could individually pass laws, which were then subject to approval by the Duma during the sessions. The State Duma was the lower house of parliament. The role of the upper house was played by the Council of State, which was to approve or reject the laws adopted by the Duma. All executive power remained in the hands of the monarch, he also alone led the Armed Forces, determined foreign policy, resolved issues of declaring war and peace, imposing a state of emergency or martial law in any territory of the Empire.

The class-curial system was recognized as preferable to general, direct, equal and secret elections because it was expected that “In a peasant country where the majority of the population is not experienced in political art, free and direct elections will lead to the victory of irresponsible demagogues and as a result mostly lawyers will sit in the legislature”. Well, both the Emperor and his Prime Minister (officially, Chairman of the Committee of Ministers) N. Bunge were right in their anticipation of the “worst case scenario” but, due to a complete lack of a relevant experience, did not prevent it from happening: unlike the parliamentarian “west”, in Russia category of the politically active left-leaning “irresponsible demagogues” was not dominated by the lawyers: it was spread more or less evenly among all professions occupied by intelligencia. And, while the qualifying requirements for the candidates from peasantry, working class and even landowners and entrepreneurs were rather strict, for a “white collar” it was enough to rent an apartment on his name or to serve in the state or city administration.

The “true conservatives” ignored election as a matter of principle.
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As a result, professional composition of the Duma looked as following: 121 peasants, 10 artisans, 17 factory workers, 14 traders, 5 manufacturers and factory managers, 46 landlords and estate managers, 73 zemstvo, city and noble assembly employees, 6 priests, 14 officials, 39 lawyers, 16 doctors, 7 engineers, 16 professors and private associate professors, 3 gymnasium teachers, 14 rural teachers, 11 journalists and 9 of unknown profession.

The biggest party (176 out of 480) were “Constitutional Democrats” (cadets) followed by 96 members of the “Labor Alliance” (trudovik):
  • Cadets - one of the party founders, Pavel Nikolaevich Milyukov [1] described the constitutional and democratic movement as ideological, extracurricular, socio-reformist, defined the main task of the party being created as "entering the Duma with the exclusive purpose of fighting for political freedom and for proper representation", and drew the boundaries of the party in the political spectrum of Russia as follows: from the more right-wing parties, the Cadets are distinguished by the denial of both bureaucratic centralization and Manchester (the direction of economic policy of the XIX century in England, which requires unconditional non-interference of the state in economic life), from the more left - adherence to constitutional monarchy and denial of the demand for full socialization of the means of production. The party also demanded creation of the Constitutional Assembly, unconditional amnesty of all political convicts, voting rights for everybody and vaguely defined “political and civic freedoms”. The party enjoyed great success in wide circles of intellectuals, merchants and burghers, liberal nobility, as well as among workers. Broad public support for it was provided by program of deep political and social transformations, while on the other hand, the desire to implement these reforms exclusively peacefully, parliamentaryly, without revolutions, violence and blood. Party figures criticized both the repressive actions of the authorities and violent actions by revolutionaries.
  • trudovik - A group of deputies from peasants and intellectuals of the populist direction. It was just a parliamentarian group, not a party, and did not have a clear platform. It was to the left of cadets on agrarian issue. The land has to be transferred to the peasants and there must be a direct, universal secret elections.
  • With the exception of 16 “Octobrists”, the rest were members of various leftist groups.

The first meeting of the State Duma was held on April 27, 1887 in the Tavrichesky Palace of St. Petersburg (after a reception with Alexander III in Winter Palace).

Whatever were the declared intentions, the practice was strictly confrontational. With the beginning of the work, the Cadets raised the issue of amnesty for all political prisoners, the abolition of the death penalty, the abolition of the Council of State, the establishment of the responsibility of the Council of Ministers to the Duma. Which was an attempt of a power grab on more than one level: the Council of State was an equal body of a higher rank and the Duma did not have a right to request change of the existing executive structure or the laws. The majority of deputies supported these demands, and on May 5, 1887 they were sent to Bunge, who refused all the demands of the Duma on May 13.

On May 7, the cadet faction signed by 42 deputies put forward a bill providing for the additional allocation of land to peasants at the expense of state, monastery, church, udel [2] and cabinet [3] lands, as well as partial forced redemption of landlord lands. The whole thing was mostly a demagoguery seeking to win popularity. By that time peasants already owned over 80% of agricultural land with the landowners, except for a limited number of big high productivity estates, owned mostly forests (a good source of income with a minimal effort). Then, on all categories of the mentioned land there already were workers (as in “employed agricultural workers”) and, logically, they’d be the first to get land and the peasants (as in “minor land owners”) would get big fat nothing or close to nothing because, the “released” land in European Russia simply would not be big enough. Which was leaving available lands in Siberia but …oops… the resettlement program was already in place and the peasants were reluctant to take advantage of it. Well, the professors, lawyers, etc. would not waste time on studying the land distribution within the empire and the peasants had a semi-religious belief that the big stretches of a free land are hidden somewhere near their own fields.

On May 23, the Trudovik faction proposed its bill providing for the formation of a "public land fund", from which it was supposed to allocate land for use to landless and low-land peasants, as well as the confiscation of land from landlords in excess of the "labor norm" with payment of the established remuneration to the latter. The project was proposed to be implemented through elected local land committees.

On June 6, 33 deputies submitted a bill on the immediate nationalization of all natural resources and the abolition of private ownership of land. By a majority vote, the Duma refused to consider such a radical draft. [4]

On June 8, the Committee of Ministers decided to dissolve the State Duma if the situation around the agrarian issue continued to escalate, as its wide discussion in the Duma caused an increase in public polemics and an increase in the revolutionary movement.

The cadet faction also introduced a bill on the immunity of Duma deputies, which provided that criminal prosecution of a deputy during the session was possible only with the consent of the Duma (except for detention during or immediately after the commission of a crime, but even in this case the Duma could cancel the detention), and if the case was initiated between sessions, all procedural actions and detentions were suspended until the opening of the session and the resolution of this issue by the Duma. Duma, however, refused to consider this bill.

Some of the liberal ministers proposed to give some of the ministerial positions to the cadets but majority of the Committee rejected idea: so far the cadets’ behavior was exclusively confrontational. The State Duma expressed no confidence in the government (which was outside Duma’s competence), after which a number of ministers began to boycott the Duma and its meetings.

For all the time of work, the deputies approved 2 bills - on the abolition of the death penalty (initiated by deputies in violation of the procedure) and on the allocation of 15 million rubles to help victims of crop failure, introduced by the government. The government offered a credit of 50 million rubles, but the Duma, wanting to express its distrust to it, reduced the amount.

By July 8 Alexander had enough and the Duma was dissolved.
The elected from the population, instead of a legislative work , went into an area that did not belong to them and turned to investigate the actions of the local authorities set from Us, to the instructions to Us on the imperfections of the Basic Laws, the amendments of which can only be taken by Our Monarch’s will, and to actions clearly illegal, as a direct appeal to the population …
But let Our subjects remember that only with complete order and tranquility is a lasting improvement in the people's life possible. Let it be known that We will not allow any willfulness or iniquity and by all the power of state we will lead the obedients of the law to submission to Our Royal will. We call on all benevolent Russian people to unite to maintain legitimate power and restore peace in Our dear Fatherland.”


Manifest also declared that the new elections will be held.

The first try was, obviously, unsuccessful and the corrective measures had been taken. The law was modified. The government, in case of emergency, had the right to adopt laws without discussion with the Duma, between the dissolution of one Duma and the convening of another, or during the termination of the Duma. The new even more convoluted election rules had been introduced to get the better results than at the first try [5]:
79 peasants, 16 artisans and workers, 49 clergy, 133 zemstvo employees, 22 private employees, 12 writers and publicists, 25 officials, 10 professors, 20 teachers, 37 lawyers, 36 traders and industrialists, 242 landowners, 2 engineers.


225 deputies were from the right wing including Octobrists and only 52 from cadets. The Octobrist Party was one of the leading ones. Some of the deputies of the Octobrists united with the moderate right, forming a leading new group in the Duma - the Party of Russian Nationalists, headed by Pyotr Balashov. This group became the "legislative center" of the Duma.
With the required majority of about 220 votes, the Octobrist faction practically owned the Duma. The alliance of the Octobrists with the nationalists gave a majority on government bills with which the Octobrists agreed; the alliance with the Cadets and Trudoviks gave the Octobrists a majority on any initiative that did not suit the government.

As was expected, the Duma immediately organized numerous commissions, sub-commissions and temporary commissions (most of which were permanent). The commissions worked actively and spent so much time discussing important bills that it caused many years of delays. For example, the draft law on volost management was discussed at 19 meetings of the commission on local self-government and at 60 meetings of the special subcommission, which took more than three years.
Based on the results of the discussion of the bill, the commission appointed a special rapporteur, who presented the conclusion of the commission to the general meeting of the Duma. The bill was discussed three times, with breaks between discussions for at least three days; the first time as a whole, the second and third - under individual articles. For bills recognized as hasty, the second and third readings could be combined. At the second reading, amendments to the bill were allowed. The slow procedure for discussing bills led to the accumulation of bills considered by the commissions and unaccepted, and before the closing of the 4th session, the Duma was forced to adopt up to 120 laws on the last day.
While a complete loyalty could not be fully guaranteed, there was a powerful stimulus: a member of the Duma was receiving 4,200 rubles annually. For comparison, professor or director of the gymnasium received 3200-3500 rubles while an average income of a peasant or worker was 200-300 rubles. Total annual state expenses on maintaining Duma were in a range of 2.5 - 2.9 millions rubles.

This Duma proved to be much more cooperative. 2,571 bills were introduced by various departments. Of these, 106 were taken back by the departments themselves, 79 were rejected by the Duma, 215 were not considered, 2,346 were accepted. Of the adopted, 31 were rejected by the State Council, 26 were returned to the Duma, 94 were transferred to the conciliation commissions of the Duma and the State Council. 2 bills adopted by the Duma and the State Council did not receive the Highest approval. 2,197 bills were approved by the Tsar and became laws. Most of these bills turned into the laws were the minor issues, sometimes creation of a single new position in state apparatus. The flooding of parliament with unimportant bills was an effective means that the government used to neutralize the Duma. The calculation that deputies crushed by the current work under small laws will moderate their own legislative initiatives was generally justified. Below is a contemporary caricature: numerous ministerial bills are dumped through the roof of the Tavrichesky Palace, place where Duma was working ( people doing the dumping are in the uniforms of top-ranking government officials ).
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The naval dilemma.
Until 1880s Russian navy was receiving little of a public attention: the glorious naval battles were in a past, and the main task of a navy was to protect the coasts. Which, due to the fact that both in Baltic and Black sea all the powers directly involved had been Russian long-term allies, seemingly was not such a big deal. Ports on the White and Barents seas had been protected by the geography, climate, fortifications and Northern squadron based upon Kola but the same geography and climate made a permanent major naval presence there rather impractical. For quite a while a small Siberian flotilla on the Pacific was considered adequate for the needs, which were limited to catching the poachers and carrying goods between the Russian ports on Asiatic and American coast.

Ideologically, the turret-based artillery (at least of a main caliber) became popular on the early stages pf its appearance. Practicality in each specific case was a different issue because initially the turrets had been closely associated with the monitors which, while being very good for a coastal defense, had very limited seaworthiness and even within the Baltic Sea needed some upgrades. The first of which was “Peter the Great” completed in 1872 and initially classified as an armored cruiser.

Then, there was a pause in construction of the big ships caused by combination of an absence of obvious need and a complete ideological chaos in that area. Britain, France and Italy kept experimenting in the areas of speed, armor and artillery, sometimes going into the extremes.
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For example, Italy, to address a threat from the French Navy, built two powerful battleships Duilio and Dandolo having “citadel” and the turrets protected by the armor 22 inches thick but the rest of the ships was protected only by underwater armored deck on top of which there was a layer of small waterproof compartments, which should limit flooding from a single hit. Some of these compartments were filled with coal, others with cork or supplies. Thus, the protection of the ship was provided by an invulnerable armored citadel in the center of the hull, and a checkered layer over the armored deck at the ends. Each of these ships had 4 17.7 inch British made moozle-loading guns placed in two turrets. To load the guns, it was necessary to turn the towers and lower the muzzles of the guns into armored glasis, under which ammunition was located. Limited amount of armor protection allowed to maintain speed up to 15 knots, which at that time was quite high. The ships had a range of 5,000 - 6,000 miles which was excessive for the coastal defense but reflected Italian expansionist ambitions on both Eastern and Western Med. France and Britain were in a constant fear of each other’s attack and, each in its own way, was creating series of ships that cost a lot of money but which advantages and disadvantages never had been seriously tested.

Russian situation, so far, was much better both because of a friendly surroundings on the Baltic and Black seas but because none of these friendly powers was putting too much stress on its naval forces based in these seas. As a result, the general policy was to maintain a force adequate for the coastal defenses and to see the results of competing naval developments. The main exceptions were the long-range cruisers needed to maintain connection with the Russian Pacific (and to irritate Brits into bigger expenses for countering non-existing threat).

The downside of this seemingly reasonable schema was person in charge, the Grand Duke Alexey Alexandrovich, Admiral-General of the Russian Navy. While he was quite sincere in his good intentions, his love to the “good life” was even stronger and he was incapable of a systematic work. As a result, his subordinates in Admiralty found that the easiest way to have things done is to find funds for sending him to entertain himself in Paris and to do whatever is needed in his absence.

Black Sea
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The first barbette battleship for the Black Sea, “St. Catherine”, was completed in 1889. It had displacement of 11,000 tons, speed up to 15.2 knots,
6 × 305 mm/35 caliber guns in 3 barbettes, 7 × 152 mm/35 Cane guns, and 10—12 small caliber guns. This, and 3 following ships of the class had and armored belt along the whole length. In the 1990s the ships had been upgraded: the better engines and more modern armor had been installed.
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In 1888 construction of the new series of battleships started (the first was ready by 1892). Displacement over 8,000 tons, armored belt of a compound steel 259 - 356mm, turrets 254 - 305 mm, deck 66 mm. Speed 15.2 knots. Main artillery 4 - 305mm/35 (in 2 turrets) and 4 - 152mm/35 guns.

Baltic Sea
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On the Baltic Sea, 2 new battleships had been added in the late 1880s, “Alexander II” and “Nicholas I”. Displacement 9,500 tons, compound armor belt of 102 - 365 mm, turret - 254 mm, deck - 60 mm, speed up to 16 knots, artillery 2 × 305-мм/30 (in a single turret), 4 × 229-мм/35, 8 × 152-мм/35, 16 × 47-мм. Their specific feature was orientation toward operations in an open ocean including the Pacific (hence the high sides).

As for the Pacific, it was decided that “Given the rapid successes of China and Japan in the development of naval forces and the fact that the fleets of European powers can easily join them in the event of a break with Russia, we had to limit ourselves to the defense of "the most important points of our coastal" in this theater of operations.” Anyway, until infrastructure on the Pacific coast was developed to a necessary degree, keeping a major fleet there on a permanent base was difficult or even impossible. Russia's political and trade interests in the Far East region could well be protected by a "sufficient number of cruisers" who, in the event of a war with European powers, could "seriously threaten their trade by attacking their commercial ships, warehouses and colonies." In the case of the serious problems with China, if Europe is at peace, special squadrons from the Baltic and Black Sea could be send there on a temporary assignment.

Sweden. By 1878 the naval force of Sweden had been for a number of years divided into two branches, one comprising the navy proper, and the other known as the "coast artillery." The navy proper consisted of the relatively small (1,000 - 2,000 tons) screw-propelled ships with the guns being rifled breech and muzzle loaders of 9, 5J, and 4 inch caliber. The coast artillery was considered the most important arm of defense; its total force was one hundred and twenty vessels of all kinds. This includes the armored vessels, the four largest being counterparts of the Passaic class. In the above were included, also, the small turreted boats built from the designs of Captain Ericsson, and provided with machinery to be worked by hand, independently of steam; there were, also, forty-four sloop-rigged galleys, six mortar-launches, and fifty-three yawls. Only in 1882 a committee of the parliament agreed upon a new type of ironclads of greater dimensions and seaworthiness, greater speed, and more powerful armament. In 1880s it built 3 coastal defense ships of Svea class (displacement over 3,000 tons, speed 16 knots, armor 11.5 inch belt and turret, armament 2 - 10in in one turret, 4 - 6 in, 6 - 5.7cm and two torpedo tubes).
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Germany. For a while its navy was considered predominantly within a framework of a coastal defense and, while being recognized as a separate service, until 1888 it was commanded by army officers, adopted the same regulations as the Prussian army and was subordinated to the general coastal defense system controlled by the army. With the Baltic being “friendly sea”, the main stress was on the Northern Sea and potential defense against France or Britain. In May 1872 a ten-year building programme was instituted to modernise the fleet. This called for eight armoured frigates, six armoured corvettes, twenty light corvettes, seven monitors, two floating batteries, six avisos, eighteen gunboats and twenty-eight torpedo boats, at an estimated cost of 220 million gold marks. In 1883 the navy had seven armoured frigates and four armoured corvettes. There was a new emphasis on development of the torpedo, which offered the possibility of relatively small ships successfully attacking much larger ones. In October 1887 the first torpedo division was created at Wilhelmshaven. Later, the protection of German maritime trade routes became important. This soon involved the setting up of some overseas supply stations, so called Auswärtige Stationen (foreign stations). So far, things were quiet and nice for everybody concerned but in June 1888 Wilhelm II became Emperor after the death of his father Frederick III, who ruled for only 99 days.
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The new Kaiser was obsessed with the naval issues approximately to the same degree as with dislike to his British relatives. Well, the last part was easy to understand: a need to make the regular visits to his mother’s family could be quite taxing. His grandmother was a self-righteous opinionated “ball on the bent legs” [6] with a serious case of mania grandiosa and terrible taste [7] but, what was worse, the British upper class tended to look at everybody else down their noses and Wilhelm II, a ruler of one of the most powerful European states hated to be treated as something of a poor relative.
Taking into an account that the main foundation of the British sense of a superiority was their naval power, it is not a big surprise that Wilhelm wanted to get even or superior in this specific area. Another aspect of being “equal” was possession of a big colonial empire and this also required a powerful navy. Of course, expansion of a naval power would come at the expense of an army and the successive heads of the German military forces were opposed to it but to no avail. The obvious counter-argument to their protest was: why should Germany expand its army when there are no obvious enemies on the continent? Breaking with a tradition of having the generals in charge of the German navy, in July 1888 Wilhelm II appointed Vice-Admiral Alexander von Monts as head of the admiralty.
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Monts oversaw the design of the Brandenburg-class battleship, four of which were constructed by 1894 at a cost of 16 million marks each and displacement of 10,000 tons. Design was influenced by the French Admiral Baudin class that carried three single-gun turrets, all on the centerline. The Brandenburg-class battleships as its main caliber carried a battery of six 28 cm guns of two different calibers; the forward and aft turrets mounted 40-caliber guns while the amidships turret required the use of shorter 35-caliber guns to allow the turret to rotate.
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The first two ships of the class had a compound armor and on two other nickel-steel armor had been used. The side protection system followed the so-called "French principle", using a narrow, full-length armored belt to protect the hull, rather than a shorter citadel system that only protected a ship's ammunition magazines and propulsion machinery spaces. Above the waterline, the armored belt was 300 mm (11.8 in) forward and as the belt moved further aft, it stepped up to 330 mm (13 in), then to 380 mm (15 in), and finally to 400 mm (15.7 in) in the central portion of the ship where it protected the magazines and machinery spaces. Further aft, it tapered to 350 mm (13.8 in) and then to 300 mm toward the stern. The deck armor was only 60mm thick but walls of the turrets were 300mm. Speed was up to 16.5 knots.

It was up to anybody to figure out what is going to happen next and this was making everyone nervous.

____________
[1] As with many others, I had to move his life “forward”: it does not make sense to keep inventing the fictional personages. In OTL at that time he was still working in university on his master degree in history.
[2] Properties income from which was used to finance members of the imperial family. By that time income was produced from the rents paid by the tenants.
[3] Property of the imperial family, which was ruled by the Cabinet of His Imperial Majesty. Cabinet lands were concentrated in Altai (since 1747) and in Transbaikalia (since 1786). In Siberia, Cabinet lands occupied 67,800,000 hectares. Gold, silver, lead, copper were mined on the cabinet lands, there were factories for smelting iron, cast iron, steel. By 1880s most of these enterprises had been leased and since 1865 peasants’s settlement (rent) on these lands had been permitted. So even in OTL the requirement was a demagoguery or just a result of ignorance in the subject.
[4] In practical terms this would mean an absolute government’s control of all natural resources and who was a head of the government? 😉
[5] The greatest specialist in the election laws was not around to explain that “it is not important how people are voting; what is important is who is counting the votes.” Well, it was the XIX century Russia and the progressive ideas were not there, yet. 😉
[6] This is from Nicky Romanov.
[7] Well, the taste part was probably lost on Willy who (or was it his wife?) declared that he and a culture are things incompatible.
 
So this begs a question but how is Russias economy doing? I'm imagine it being the size of otl Germany in this time period. Also shouldn't Russia be somewhat more urbanized due to earlier industrialization?

Also as expected Parliament is really out of control with immediately trying to grab power from the Monarch, something Emperor will have to deal with in time of peace (in this casehe really needs to look at who counts the votes).

Otherwise Willy is finally on the throne and ready to cause trouble, now real question is what's happening to Nicky?
 
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Things are sure chaotic on Russia with the duma...

Nope. They are (after the first error) under control: the Duma is busy dealing with a avalanche of bill. Most of them are crap but they deputies are feeling themselves important and can report to their constituency that they handled thousands of the vitally important issues. Plus, the good salaries are always conductive to feeling good about themselves. So the Duma retains its prestige, feels good, projects image of being important and goes reasonably well with the government while projecting an image of being independent (some of the government’s bills are being rejected and some being changed). The government is happy because on one hand it does not have anymore to deal with the demands for creating the Duma (here it is alive and kicking) and OTOH, the Duma is generally cooperative and accommodating.

AIII may not be fully happy but he won big in PR while losing little in the terms of a real power.

The ordinary people… Well, to start with, most of them do not give a blip and for the rest: you wanted it? You got it.
And man, Willy II came to the throne, problems are sure to arrive soon.
Yes, Willy has all qualifications for being pain in the numerous posteriors but ITTL international situation is noticeably different starting with the good/very good relations and minimal conflicting interests between France, Russia and Germany. France even shares with Willy a paranoid attitude toward the Perfidious One. Austria is sans Hungary and is considered as a Great Power mostly as a matter of politeness but is not Germany’s semi-vassal. OE and RE are linked to each other by too many serious interests for the “beautiful friendship” to be broken by the German meddling.

So Willy’s options are limited to either being confrontational with Britain (naval race with Germany being free to somewhat economize on the army) or to start quarrel with the allies over what? Neither Russia nor France care too much about his naval program even if it forces them to somewhat upgrade their own navies. In Africa main conflict of interests will be with Britain (I’ll get to this, eventually).

But Britain’s position on the continent is weak. Potential allies are Italy (scared of France), Spain (pretty much the same but unlikely) and Austria. Russia may or may not be neutral and so is France but neutrality could be German-frindly. So, if s—t happens it is going to be naval and colonial.
 
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So Willy’s options are limited to either being confrontational with Britain (naval race with Germany being free to somewhat economize on the army) or to start quarrel with the allies over what? Neither Russia nor France care too much about his naval program even if it forces them to somewhat upgrade their own navies. In Africa main conflict of interests will be with Britain (I’ll get to this, eventually).

I would say that confrontation with the British is fairly limited, yes Germany is building up the Navy but in framework of current continental system its really is nothing new and British can still outbuild Germany like in otl, which will make it only a scare really.

Regarding Africa? I mean there will be conflicting interests but to be honest Germany has a lot easier target's to go after if it wants bigger colonial empire, like Kongo. Belgium doesn't really exist and no one can ban Germany to take it. Plus if we look at otl German ambitions they are mostly fulfilled as under ITTL colonial treaty Germany does have access to African markets (something US advocated otl and Russia ITTL), access to African market was ultimately the goal of German Imperial policy. Regarding Asia in 1900 Germany actually signed Yangtze Agreement with the British to support open door policy in China so there was place for cooperation as well.

Regarding the Russia and France, Germany otl more or less terminated reassurance treaty with Russia for no reason so even if relationship is good with Willy things are unpredictable, plus it isn't out of realm of possibility for him to try and make a little correction on German Polish border as that defeat at hands of General Bonapartov really left a dint in German eastern borders.

Otherwise Berlin Baghdad railway will probably still happen and while Ottomans and Russia have common interests without Austria and Italy and with otl considerations Germany makes perfect partner for the Ottomans and possible counterbalance to Russia.

Point being that British while being arrogant aren't Germanys only target (especially in Africa where they really have minimal profits) and otl problem was more of the economic nature with British losing competitiveness mostly to Germany (ITTL with Germany being weaker industrialy, less unified and other powers being more developed in general with smaller British lead Germany isn't really outlier ).
 
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I would say that confrontation with the British is fairly limited, yes Germany is building up the Navy but in framework of current continental system its really is nothing new and British can still outbuild Germany like in otl, which will make it only a scare really.

“Scare” was a serious thing and its byproducts cost a lot of money and effort as was shown by pretty much “paper scare” of the Russian cruisers. Then, one never knows when and how it can escalate into a serious conflict just due to a wrong move caused by a common nervousness.
Regarding Africa? I mean there will be conflicting interests but to be honest Germany has a lot easier target's to go after, like Kongo. Belgium doesn't really exist and no one can ban Germany to take it.

Except that Berlin Conference recognized its ownership by Association internationale du Congo and it was not a secret who stands behind this organization. If threatened Emperor of France can easily present territory to the Empire of France and why would Willy spoil relations with a friendly country? Anyway, “effective presence” (or whatever was the term) of the British possessions blocking further German expansion inland from Zanzibar coast also can be a tricky thing to prove and on a map an idea of connecting German East Africa with German West Africa may look cool. So there are numerous opportunities to have a conflict over something but none of them represents inevitable casus beli.

Plus if we look at otl German ambitions they are mostly fulfilled as under ITTL colonial treaty Germany does have access to African markets (something US advocated otl and Russia ITTL), access to African market was ultimately the goal of German Imperial policy.

I was under the impression that the main interest was to be counted as a true empire and that these colonies were not profitable. 😂
Regarding Asia in 1900 Germany actually signed Yangtze Agreement with the British to support open door policy in China so there was place for cooperation as well.
We are not in 1900, yet and this is not quite OTL.
Basically beside German naval build up I don't really see the reason for rivalry happen, not to mention that even that isn't as big of a threat given that German empire is a lot more decentralized.
Well, the naval competition did happen and it would not happen if Britain was not taking it seriously. How the common sense was getting into the picture on both sides I can’t tell. No matter how the German empire is centralized, the British empire is spreading all over the globe (which probably makes it at least just as decentralized) and Britain itself is much more dependent upon getting supplies by the sea than Germany. Plus, in OTL Germany started bypassing Britain in industrial production.

All of the above does not mean that there is going to be a military confrontation, at least not in Europe: with both France and Russia not being anti-German (and the same for Germany) I don’t see a plausible anti-German coalition which could maintain fight for more than few weeks.
 
Regarding the Russia and France, Germany otl more or less terminated reassurance treaty with Russia for no reason

There were reasons. France was an enemy and Russia was getting closer to France. AH was an ally and it had the Balkan interests conflicting with those of Russia. None of these reasons exists ITTL.
so even if relationship is good with Willy things are unpredictable,

Things are never fully predictable but Willy’s “unpredictability” tended to be within the predictable limits. Situation that led to wwi involved numerous other idiots and circumstances which are absent ITTL.
plus it isn't out of realm of possibility for him to try and make a little correction on German Polish border as that defeat at hands of General Bonapartov really left a dint in German eastern borders.
And why would ITTL Russia go to war with Germany over few pieces of territory in Western Poland? Even Sweden would not bother because its border with Germany is settled to a mutual satisfaction. ITTL Poland (whatever left of it) is not an area of anybody’s special interest with a possible exception of a still ongoing oil boom in Galicia. But so far oil is being used almost exclusively for getting kerosine and Willy would not want to be a victor in “Kerosine War”. 😉

Otherwise Berlin Baghdad railway will probably still happen and while Ottomans and Russia have common interests without Austria and Italy and with otl considerations Germany makes perfect partner for the Ottomans and possible counterbalance to Russia.
“Counterbalancing” in what? Russia does not have territorial designs at OE’s expense and vise versa, it is not getting too deep into OE’s domestic affairs unless asked for help, it does not trying to prevent the British-Ottoman trade so why would it object to the German one? If anything, their imports/exports nomenclature are in a minimal contradiction and RR into OE hinterland improves Russian trading abilities in Anatolia and further. There is, of course, a tiny problem: this RR has to pass through Hungary, which means that (providing Hungary gives permission to construct it) traffic by it is going to depend upon the good graces of the Hungarian Romanovs. Would Willy risk a war over this?

Germany, by its geography, hardly can seriously help OE in the case of disturbances in the Principalities and Bulgaria while Russia can and did. OE was already buying Krupp’s guns in 1870s and British warships since 1860s and so what? ITTL Russia is not trying to make OE its vassal (or at least exclusive vassal). The main interest is in trading with the specific items and unobstructed passage through the straits. OE is a pie too big for anyone to eat it alone and it is better to have multiple “eaters” because their combination prevents anyone for getting exclusive possession.

The same goes for the potential German influence in Persia: Britain “has” South, Russia - North and the center is free for grabs (to which end, I have no idea). The worst case scenario - Germany is trying to upset status quo by the diplomatic intrigues, which is a normal thing to do. This is what the diplomats are for. But it is pretty much impossible for Germany to back up these intrigues by a military force.

Point being that British while being arrogant aren't Germanys only target (especially in Africa where they really have minimal profits) and otl problem was more of the economic nature with British losing competitiveness mostly to Germany (ITTL with Germany being weaker industrialy, less unified and other powers being more developed in general with smaller British lead Germany isn't really outlier ).
The point being is that, objectively, ITTL nobody is Germany’s target. The main and pretty much only reasons for Willy stirring the pot are (a) his sincere love of the navy and (b) his personal dislike of his British relatives. But there is a long distance between annoying the Brits and starting a major war with anybody.
 
. The obvious counter-argument to their protest was: why should Germany expand its army when there are no obvious enemies on the continent?
In before the Polish nationalists do something crazy, then again surely they would try to push their luck in a small manner then escalate than go all in right?

Nice to see how Europe's developing.
 
ITTL Poland (whatever left of it) is not an area of anybody’s special interest with a possible exception of a still ongoing oil boom in Galicia. But so far oil is being used almost exclusively for getting kerosine and Willy would not want to be a victor in “Kerosine War”. 😉

Technically restoring some traditional Prussian lands would be prestigious , not to mention that east Prussia is connected to the rest of Germany with only small strip of land, something Germany would probably like to correct. Especially if no one opposed it, so I could see Germany obtaining otl German border in the east.
There is, of course, a tiny problem: this RR has to pass through Hungary, which means that (providing Hungary gives permission to construct it) traffic by it is going to depend upon the good graces of the Hungarian Romanovs. Would Willy risk a war over this?

Technically Austria does have a border with Ottomans so purely from strategic perspective Germany can build railway there increasing its influence in Austria without needing to be in good grace of Hungary. Commercially on other hand having railway to Hungary helps.
The same goes for the potential German influence in Persia: Britain “has” South, Russia - North and the center is free for grabs (to which end, I have no idea). The worst case scenario - Germany is trying to upset status quo by the diplomatic intrigues, which is a normal thing to do. This is what the diplomats are for. But it is pretty much impossible for Germany to back up these intrigues by a military force.

That's fair. ITTL Germany probably won't bother with shaking the status quo as long as region is commercially and politically opened to its interests, having part of Persia helps.

Except that Berlin Conference recognized its ownership by Association internationale du Congo and it was not a secret who stands behind this organization. If threatened Emperor of France can easily present territory to the Empire of France and why would Willy spoil relations with a friendly country? Anyway, “effective presence” (or whatever was the term) of the British possessions blocking further German expansion inland from Zanzibar coast also can be a tricky thing to prove and on a map an idea of connecting German East Africa with German West Africa may look cool. So there are numerous opportunities to have a conflict over something but none of them represents inevitable casus beli.

Problem being that German West Africa is colonized by France in this TL (I remember making the map about French colonizing Namibia), which leaves Cameron with Kongo standing between it and German east Africa, plus French controlling good part of West African coastline, British controlling Madagscar and Northern part of Mozambique (bought from Portugal) doesn't stand in German way of connecting its colonies. In this TL British have weary minimal Presence in Africa with France, or its associated allies controlling good part of the continent. Personally Germany purchasing Northern Kongo from France with South going directly under French control could make for a reasonable compromise.

But what about other parts of the world? Regarding Asia beside German New Ginuea there's some space between French and British zones of influence for Germany to colonize , German Thailand maybe?
 
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Technically restoring some traditional Prussian lands would be prestigious , not to mention that east Prussia is connected to the rest of Germany with only small strip of land, something Germany would probably like to correct. Especially if no one opposed it, so I could see Germany obtaining otl German border in the east.

Which “traditional Prussian lands”? Germany holds some of the Polish “German” lands and valuable part of the rest holds Sweden. Without the OTL partitions there is little of “tradition” short of going back to the middle ages and few years in the XVIII century. The OTL border is not possible without taking lands from Sweden and this means a major war with Sweden and Russia.

Technically Austria does have a border with Ottomans so purely from strategic perspective Germany can build railway there increasing its influence in Austria without needing to be in good grace of Hungary. Commercially on other hand having railway to Hungary helps.
You are missing the point. There are already railroads connecting Austria and Hungary and Hungary with OE - they are trading with each other and even if there is no love between Austria and Hungary, their economies are mutually complementary. However, unlike OTL, Hungary is not exclusively oriented toward Austria - it trades with Russia and OE so having railroad to OE in addition to the Danube is convenient. There is no need to build one more road, especially through the least convenient part of the Balkans. The point is that the RR is going through Hungary and Hungary is ruled by the Romanovs. Which means that it does not make practical sense for Willy to get confrontational with Russia over some unidentified and probably non-existing issue. German military mission led by Wilhelm Leopold Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz (Golts Pasha)is in OE since 1883. He is in charge of the Ottoman military schools and since 1886 - Deputy Chief of the OE General Staff and actively participating in modernization of Ottoman army and Russia does not give a blip: it has a common “territorial interest” with OE and interested in OE being strong enough not to allow it to be grabbed by Greece or Italy or anybody else.


That's fair. ITTL Germany probably won't bother with shaking the status quo as long as Region is commercially and politically opened to its interests, having part of Persia helps.

Germany is interested in shaking status quo (as in OTL) because the central Persia was (as I understand) pretty much worthless as a market. In OTL it was actively intriguing with Russia against Britain and with Britain against Russia. The problem (for Germany) was that it did not have a direct access to Persia and could not get it: sea coast was British zone. Even if Germany extends RR all the way to Persia (idea which OE may not like), communications are still tenuous and dependent upon somebody’s good will.

Problem being that German West Africa is colonized by France in this TL (I remember making the map about French colonizing Namibia),

Yes, you did. But later I split it: Edit: oops, just found that this is missing from Berlin Conference chapter. Sorry for the confusion.

French graciously agreed to give (for a suitable compensation) part of the sand pile to Germany. South with the diamonds is French so the North with not, yet, discovered gold, uranium and other interesting things is German. British Central Africa, Rhodesia and whatever else are in between. And Britain blocks expansion to the North. Not that any of the above is worthy of a serious war but in OTL the Brits and French almost got into one over Fashoda.

Not sure if getting Eastern Congo does make too much of a practical sense because communications would be terrible and, anyway, why would the French Emperor agree to sell it to Germany? Even with the good relations, wouldn’t it be unpatriotic to France?


But what about other parts of the world? Regarding Asia beside German New Ginuea there's some space between French and British zones of influence for Germany to colonize , German Thailand maybe?
I have no idea. As far as Russia is involved, the more places are being held by diversified friendly powers the better for the commerce and “just in case”: in OTL the only place where the 2nd Pacific squadron could get coal and some rest was one of the German colonies. Probably at some point I’ll get to this issue in more details.
 
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The OTL border is not possible without taking lands from Sweden and this means a major war with Sweden and Russia.

I was thinking about otl Russo(Polish)-German border without Swedish territories. These involve only a minor war with Poland. Just to fatten that thin line between east Prussia and Germany and it looks better on the map.
Not sure if getting Eastern Congo does make too much of a practical sense because communications would be terrible and, anyway, why would the French Emperor agree to sell it to Germany? Even with the good relations, wouldn’t it be unpatriotic to France?

Technically it's like otl PLC situation for Russia you exchange something you control indirectly (territory isn't really part of France) for part of something under direct control of French state (it could be used as good propaganda).

But now that I think about it would it even make sense for Germany to buy those lands ? As they are pretty worthless and would only need direct German investment (plus needlessly strain relations when France has proven quite ready to accommodate German interests already) , plus Germany has easy access to its colonies via Ocean. I believe Germany would be more interested in French support for German disputes with British than connecting it's territories, maybe expanding German east Africa to Kenya (otl British East Africa), Wilhelms lake has nice ring to it. Otl Germany had interest there via Zanzibar holdings but was forced to ceede it to the British who got it only in 1890 so there's still time for last minute changes (plus its far better conflict for the two than some dusty British colonies in Central Africa).

Otherwise otl France and British agreed to make Siam/Thailand buffer Kingdom between their spheres of influence but it's possible for Germany to gain protectorate over it as well, under condition that one of the two powers support it of course.

And last but not least, will we see Sweden/Denmark/Norway unite under one crown?
 
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I was thinking about otl Russo(Polish)-German border without Swedish territories. These involve only a minor war with Poland. Just to fatten that thin line between east Prussia and Germany and it looks better on the map.

How much of a practical sense would it make? There is a land connection through which you can put a railroad or highway to get a direct access to EP. The only truly valuable piece with the ports is held by Sweden so in the terms of an added value you are getting something close to zero. Willy’s idea fixe is to make Germany a true great empire by the colonial expansion and few hundred square kilometers of Poland are hardly advancing him in a desirable direction while potentially may lead to souring relations with Russia and Sweden: not that they care about the PLC but a violent breaking of a status quo is undesirable. Minor territorial adjustments can be negotiated by some kind of a “Baltic conference” (mini-Munich) but there is no glory or status upgrade so why would Willy bother?


Technically it's like otl PLC situation for Russia you exchange something you control indirectly (territory isn't really part of France) for part of something under direct control of French state (it could be used as good propaganda).

But propaganda-wise you will do even better by giving your territory directly to France instead of a multi-step exchange in which Germany has little of value to offer.

But now that I think about it would it even make sense for Germany to buy those lands ?
Not too much and this is what I already pointed to. Access from the East is terrible.

As they are pretty worthless and would only need direct German investment (plus needlessly strain relations when France has proven quite ready to accommodate German interests already) , plus Germany has easy access to its colonies via Ocean.
That’s the point. On a big scale it does not worth the trouble. Not to mention that the idea of the German colonies providing a belt from ocean to ocean may generate serious objections from some other colonial powers.


I believe Germany would be more interested in French support for German disputes with British than connecting it's territories, maybe expanding German east Africa to Kenya (otl British East Africa), Wilhelms lake has nice ring to it.
Yes. And for Willy (and France) a colonialist Franco-German block is in a much better position vis-a-vis Britain than quarreling France and Germany. Britain is somewhat less powerful than in OTL but it is still #1 economic and naval power and it’s attitude to the rest of Europe is still arrogant. IIRC, I quoted contemporary opinion that any colonial expansion or trade may happen only with the British consent.


Otl Germany had interest there via Zanzibar holdings but was forced to ceede it to the British who got it only in 1890 so there's still time for last minute changes (plus its far better conflict for the two than some dusty British colonies in Central Africa).
In OTL possession of Heligoland (so far held by the Brits) was of a primary strategic importance to Germany. ITTL the problem does not exist and Britain has nothing valuable to offer except for the patches of African jungles which it controls mostly in theory. So Germany holds Zanzibar.

Otherwise otl France and British agreed to make Siam/Thailand buffer Kingdom between their spheres of influence but it's possible for Germany to gain protectorate over it as well, under condition that one of the two powers support it of course.

Maybe some islands?

And last but not least, will we see Sweden/Denmark/Norway unite under one crown?
Did not think about it.
 
Maybe some islands?

Otl Germany held German New Ginuea and some Pacific islands already so I don't think that that would sate their appetite and I doubt that Spanish and the Dutch would be willing to sell their colonies. Though if USA - Spanish war still happens I could see Spanish selling Philippines to Germany if later agrees to intervene on their side, or just as fuck you to US as its better to go out of conflict with something (cash) than nothing.

But propaganda-wise you will do even better by giving your territory directly to France instead of a multi-step exchange in which Germany has little of value to offer.

Well that could be the price of supporting Germany in east Africa, German support for French direct control of Congo.

How much of a practical sense would it make? There is a land connection through which you can put a railroad or highway to get a direct access to EP. The only truly valuable piece with the ports is held by Sweden so in the terms of an added value you are getting something close to zero. Willy’s idea fixe is to make Germany a true great empire by the colonial expansion and few hundred square kilometers of Poland are hardly advancing him in a desirable direction while potentially may lead to souring relations with Russia and Sweden: not that they care about the PLC but a violent breaking of a status quo is undesirable. Minor territorial adjustments can be negotiated by some kind of a “Baltic conference” (mini-Munich) but there is no glory or status upgrade so why would Willy bother?

I mean it's important to note that German Empire wasn't born with the boom as peer otl and quickly rose to prominence, it was created in a war with Austria that stoppedto be great power for quite some time with Russian blessing. ITTL Germany is probably French peer and at least economically its behind Russia (smaller industrial region, HRE sticking longer etc).

Gaining lands in the east that were lost in war against Russia and Sweden is a sign of prestige for Germany as it shows that Empire is being taken seriously on international stage and is able to reverse the borders and treatises that it doesn't want. I believe that for this German Empire gaining some lost Prussian lands can be seen as significant sign of prestige and internal Glory (Especially for someone as militaristic as Wilhelm) as Empire is showing that it can stand equal with Russia and influence happenings in eastern Europe (even better with no big cost). Generally while relations with Sweden and Russia may sour I believe that Willy would find approval internally and once again he is picking his target carefully so at the end of the day it will just be business as usual for the Baltics.

Also I like the idea of Baltic conference.
 
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Otl Germany held German New Ginuea and some Pacific islands already so I don't think that that would sate their appetite and I doubt that Spanish and the Dutch would be willing to sell their colonies. Though if USA - Spanish war still happens I could see Spanish selling Philippines to Germany if later agrees to intervene on their side, or just as fuck you to US as its better to go out of conflict with something (cash) than nothing.
In OTL Germany got some island including part of New Guinea. But, honestly, I did not think too much, yet, about their colonial empire and even the alt French and British except for Sudan-related adventures. Perhaps later I’ll be able to come with something coherent and then we’ll discuss the options.

Well that could be the price of supporting Germany in east Africa, German support for French direct control of Congo.
Seems reasonable.

I mean it's important to note that German Empire wasn't born with the boom as peer otl and quickly rose to prominence, it was created in a war with Austria that stoppedto be great power for quite some time with Russian blessing. ITTL Germany is probably French peer and at least economically its behind Russia (smaller industrial region, HRE sticking longer etc).

Gaining lands in the east that were lost in war against Russia and Sweden is a sign of prestige for Germany as it shows that Empire is being taken seriously on international stage and is able to reverse the borders and treatises that it doesn't want. I believe that for this German Empire gaining some lost Prussian lands can be seen as significant sign of prestige and internal Glory (Especially for someone as militaristic as Wilhelm) as Empire is showing that it can stand equal with Russia and influence happenings in eastern Europe (even better with no big cost). Generally while relations with Sweden and Russia may sour I believe that Willy would find approval internally and once again he is picking his target carefully so at the end of the day it will just be business as usual for the Baltics.

Can you be more specific about these territories? IIRC, Germany still keeps lands West of the Wistula or are they lost?

The main problem with your proposal is that Sweden may feel itself endangered by such a behavior because it holds a considerable chunk of the German-speaking lands within German Empire and just outside it including a big prize, Danzig region. Or it can be Danish Holstein with Kiel canal. Allowing Willy to restore the “historic injustice” by force on something small today may result in the bigger ambitions tomorrow. So, unless this is something truly insignificant and involving financial compensation, it is logical to assume that the whole issue can be viewed within framework of a greater perspective with a violent reaction that would result either in a major war or in Willy’s humiliation if he caves under the pressure. Neither situation is good ROI.

Chances for the PLC just to give away part of its territory even with a monetary compensation is not very high, IMO.

Willy may try to play a victim of the PLC aggression but for this you need either at least a convincing and serious border incident, real or imaginable, as an excuse or a full scale war (Austria & PLC vs. Germany? Does not sound too plausible even with Britain on their side).

Another option, which may logically led to a peaceful solution is a major economic crisis in the PLC, which is easy to imagine, with serious disturbances in the western areas -> violence against local German speakers -> Willy calls for a conference-> everybody wants to protect the victims -> transfer of the territory with compensation to help PLC out of the economic crisis. Something along these lines with more plausible details (as presented, the schema looks fishy).
Also I like the idea of Baltic conference.
This would be “civilized” and raises everybody’s (except the PLC but who cares) prestige: Baltic League (including Germany) demonstrates that it is a block, and very powerful one. And that block takes care of the interests of its members. Today only in Baltics but tomorrow ….
 
This would be “civilized” and raises everybody’s (except the PLC but who cares) prestige: Baltic League (including Germany) demonstrates that it is a block, and very powerful one. And that block takes care of the interests of its members. Today only in Baltics but tomorrow ….

Technically calling conference could resolve Swedish fears with no need for any ither major incident, Willy still can claim Eastern lands (maybe some extra for otl eastern borders ) while also assuring Sweden once again that Prussia in its German incarnation doesn't have pretension on their lands (While Prussia signed the deal with Sweden now its part of German Empire whichtheoretically can claim that that dill doesn't apply for its member state) . It's one thing for Prussia to sign the treaty, it's another if German Empire does it in conference with Russia as mediator as this would give Sweden/Denmark legal protection. Conformation of previous arrangement in exchange for allowing Germany to correct its eastern border in lost war. Also it's important to note that Poland doesn't have any such treaty with Prussia/ Germany opposed to Sweden so they are fair game.

Generally look at it as just expansion of German borders for strategic sake to better connect to eastern Prussia and no one can talk about any kind of revanchism (and Poland, but they aren't a threat and this might show them that they need to play nice and seek protector among GP).
 
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How in the world is Willy claiming eastern lands? Sweden is a great power and certainly not going to sell anything meaningful or cede territory without losing a war. Poland is a bit weaker, but same thing (also it isn't *that* weak, population close to 30 million). This was not an era where countries were like "lets be polite and hand over a chunk of land to our neighbor". Heck, even Denmark was willing to fight two great powers simultaneously not that long before now OTL. Sweden, Poland, and Denmark all have a clear interest in supporting each other given they all have territory the German Empire might want. Not sure why Russia would want to let an expansionist, militaristic power carve off chucks of a friendly semi-vassal who hasn't given anyone trouble in nearly 100 years. Trying would ruin German PR although admittedly I could see Willy being that stupid. But he isn't getting diddly squat territorially in the East, maybe a few tiny land swaps to straighten the border or settle a small disputed area to save a bit of face when everyone asks him very politely to please calm down and sit down. If not, well this is how you get ATL WWI though Germany doesn't exactly seem blessed with allies at the moment.

You are saying then no can talk about any kind of revanchism. But this is revanchism, wanting to to carve of pretty significant chunks of neighboring land based on some idea of historical claim despite being part of Poland or Sweden for quite some time ranging from decades to over a century. Remember the lost war after which borders were corrected in question is close to 80 years in the past at this point. Also what in the world is the value of 'legal protection' when you've show you can be pressured into peacefully ceding your land? 'Protection' is having an army, hopefully allies, and the spine to use it if people start asking absurd things of you.
 
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Technically calling conference could resolve Swedish fears with no need for any ither major incident, Willy still can claim Eastern lands

Can you be more specific? Which PLC woyevodships are you talking about besides those that Germany already holds?


(maybe some extra for otl eastern borders ) while also assuring Sweden once again that Prussia in its German incarnation doesn't have pretension on their lands (While Prussia signed the deal with Sweden now its part of German Empire whichtheoretically can claim that that dill doesn't apply for its member state) .
That’s the idea.

Of course, German Empire is not HRE. It is a brand new set of the lands which “voluntarily” (😉) united and the Swedish and Danish territories within the former HRE never did so there can be no legal claim, especially regarding Danzig region which was not HRE to start with. But official confirmation never hurts.



It's one thing for Prussia to sign the treaty, it's another if German Empire does it in conference with Russia as mediator as this would give Sweden/Denmark legal protection. Conformation of previous arrangement in exchange for allowing Germany to correct its eastern border in lost war. Also it's important to note that Poland doesn't have any such treaty with Prussia/ Germany opposed to Sweden so they are fair game.
The PLC does not have any mutual defense treaties with any of its neighbors but its borders were set by the treaties. Of course, it is up to Germany to declare that old border treaties with Prussia does not apply and to call a conference to officially set such them. Strictly speaking, it should involve France (which holds a big part of the former HRE), Netherlands and Austria as well, which would be messy, but this can be easily done by a set of the bilateral treaties confirming status quo and absence of the future claims. Baltics is a special “regional” case to be decided by the parties involved.

Probably there also must be a broader conference regarding international aspect of the Kiel canal (rights of passage for the warships at a peace- and wartime, confirmation of Denmark’s right of possession, etc.).

Politicians like the conferences.

Generally look at it as just expansion of German borders for strategic sake to better connect to eastern Prussia and no one can talk about any kind of revanchism (and Poland, but they aren't a threat and this might show them that they need to play nice and seek protector among GP).
This is all fine except for the last piece. PLC under protection of any single GP is a recipe for it becoming pain in the butt for its neighbors and for the protector as well. Of course, the regional powers can’t prevent it from looking for the alliances but this leaves one neighbor “protector”, Austria (which is not a big deal) and two outsiders: France and Britain. France has friendly relations with Germany and Russia and is not going to saddle itself with any obligations endangering these relations (BTW, shouldn’t we made them into mutual defense or at least non-aggression pacts?) and Britain is hardly too helpful to the state that does not have a coast and definitely is not going to take unilateral obligations to defend it.

At best, PLC gets out of the conference with a guaranteed assurance that there are no further pretenses regarding its borders, some financial compensation and/or agreement regarding the lower import/export tariffs on cotton/textiles (which saves Lodz industry from a ruin).
 
Conversation is about a small piece of the territory improving access to the EP, not about a major land grab, which of course would raise a lot of hackles, and not only in a region.

How in the world is Willy claiming eastern lands? Sweden is a great power and certainly not going to sell anything meaningful or cede territory without losing a war.

Sweden is not GP anymore but (a) it is a member of a powerful block and (b) the premise is that Germany is officially gives up all potential claims to the Swedish and Danish territories even if they were within the former HRE or Prussia.
Poland is a bit weaker, but same thing (also it isn't *that* weak, population close to 30 million).

Size of a population is meaningless: China had hundreds of millions and was thoroughly beaten by relatively small forces. PLC is a poor agricultural country with a little of a manufacturing (unlike OTL Russia is not heavily investing in its textile and manufacturing industries) and no direct access to the source materials for textile industry. There are no money for having a strong army with modern weaponry and it has to avoid a war with one of the GPs. There is, of course, a kerosine boom but it is not enough.
This was not an era where countries were like "lets be polite and hand over a chunk of land to our neighbor".

Yes, you are right, it is 1880s, not 1938 and Europe is not yet “civilized” enough. 😜
Well, how about the earlier (1918) model: “first defeat the neighbor and then to do whatever we want with his territories”?

Heck, even Denmark was willing to fight two great powers simultaneously not that long before now OTL.
Denmark was not surrounded, had a narrow border to defend and the opponents were military weak (the 1st time). Plus, as was more than once explained by @Jürgen, its important part is on the islands and it had naval superiority.

Sweden, Poland, and Denmark all have a clear interest in supporting each other given they all have territory the German Empire might want.

The interest exists but it is not common. Sweden and Denmark are the members of an alliance which protects their interests. Poland is not.
Not sure why Russia would want to let an expansionist, militaristic power carve off chucks of a friendly semi-vassal who hasn't given anyone trouble in nearly 100 years.
This is not OTL XVIII century. Russia is not too interested in having PLC as semi-vassal (BTW, this did not prevent the partitions) because, unlike OTL, this is meaningless within different geopolitical framework. PLC is just a weak neighbor state of a limited usefulness economically or otherwise. It is not a big buyer of the Russian exports and even a minor competitor on kerosine market. OTOH, Germany is a powerful and useful friend both in the technological and international area: Russia can use coaling stations of the German colonies and the growing German naval strength is partially balancing the Brits.

Trying would ruin German PR although admittedly I could see Willy being that stupid.

Direct land grab would. But an international conference is a different kettle of fish, especially if it formally settles all possible future issues of the region and provides some economic bonus for PLC.

But he isn't getting diddly squat territorially in the East, maybe a few tiny land swaps to straighten the border or settle a small disputed area to save a bit of face when everyone asks him very politely to please calm down and sit down. If not, well this is how you get ATL WWI though Germany doesn't exactly seem blessed with allies at the moment.

You did not pay attention: (a) he wants just expansion of the access to EP and (b) the whole thing starts with “sitting down” (Willy asks for the arbitration and discussion involves confirmation of the existing borders with Denmark and Sweden).


 
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