No german reunification

I understand why Mitterand acted the way he did. But Thatcher?
Fuck that bitch. I am actually surprised Kohl wasn't out for revenge.
There is a reason that she is the most hated british politician in germany.

Can you explain why you understand Mitterrand and not Thatcher?:confused:
 
Not sure why some people in this thread think the "will of the people" is some end all be all. The will of the Nicaraguan people put the Sandanistas in power. The will of the Chileans elected Allende. And let's not forget the will of the Czechs or the Hungarians in the 60s. The Cold War was all about making sure the "will of the people" coincided with Superpower policy goals or else. The Germans are not special. And all the protests in the world aren't going to do a thing to the American military forces stationed there even if the Soviets crumble.

If they were, then the Okinawans would have been rid of American military bases long, long ago.
 
Can you explain why you understand Mitterrand and not Thatcher?:confused:

Because Mitterand had concerns about a fast German reunification not because he thougth that it would turn in to a 4th Reich incarnate and invade it's neighbours again, but because he was aware that a reunified Germany would not only outmatch France population wiese but economicly too. He feared a German economic domination of the continent. That's why he wanted safeguards in place that could prevent such a thing. Him and Kohl bein both european federalists saw this for a chance to introduce a common currency and regulatory meassures. Well, his plan backfired as we can see today, but he was open to German re-unification.

Thatcher on the other hand actually believed that a reunified Germany would be Satan himself. She herself sayed that she made her opinion of Germany in 1942 and it didn't change till today.
 
Because Mitterand had concerns about a fast German reunification not because he thougth that it would turn in to a 4th Reich incarnate and invade it's neighbours again, but because he was aware that a reunified Germany would not only outmatch France population wiese but economicly too. He feared a German economic domination of the continent. That's why he wanted safeguards in place that could prevent such a thing. Him and Kohl bein both european federalists saw this for a chance to introduce a common currency and regulatory meassures. Well, his plan backfired as we can see today, but he was open to German re-unification.

Thatcher on the other hand actually believed that a reunified Germany would be Satan himself. She herself sayed that she made her opinion of Germany in 1942 and it didn't change till today.

I see then...
 
Not sure why some people in this thread think the "will of the people" is some end all be all. The will of the Nicaraguan people put the Sandanistas in power. The will of the Chileans elected Allende. And let's not forget the will of the Czechs or the Hungarians in the 60s. The Cold War was all about making sure the "will of the people" coincided with Superpower policy goals or else. The Germans are not special. And all the protests in the world aren't going to do a thing to the American military forces stationed there even if the Soviets crumble.

If they were, then the Okinawans would have been rid of American military bases long, long ago.

Well, PR is important you know...
The crushing of the Hungarian Revolution and Prague Spring led to a loss of support for Communism, especially in the West. That's why the term "tankie" is a thing...
And the US got lots of flack for the Contras and the 1973 coup...that's a major factor behind anti-Americanism in Latin America, and why Chavez first became popular...

And what Cold War interests are there for Germany to remain divided when the superpowers were OK with reunification?
 

Devvy

Donor
I understand why Mitterand acted the way he did. But Thatcher?
Fuck that bitch. I am actually surprised Kohl wasn't out for revenge.
There is a reason that she is the most hated british politician in germany.


Back to topic: They could use economic pressure. France could demand higher tarifs on German products and the British could do the same.

Considering that they are all part of the EEC, which has enacted the Single Market by 1989 when the first East German fault lines began to show, no they couldn't. There are no customs borders or officials along the Rhine; only immigration officials.

They could only enact higher tariffs by quitting the EEC; such a move would be highly risky considering that the EEC covered almost all of western Europe by this point.

Thatcher on the other hand actually believed that a reunified Germany would be Satan himself. She herself sayed that she made her opinion of Germany in 1942 and it didn't change till today.

While I am no huge fan of Thatcher, it's easy to judge in hindsight. At this point it was barely 40 years since WWII, and the memory of being in the London Blitz is well within living memory. While I don't think it was smart of Thatcher, I can at least understand to some extent.
 
The cold war's over. The iron curtain's coming down, Gorbachev's bringing freedom to Eastern Europe. All will be peace and harmony, the bad old days of dictators is past. Well, that was the spirit of the age and who cares if Germany reunites in this atmosphere? Well, just a few people who are living in the past.

So how would Germany not reunite? The only way is for the ermans to not want it. And why wouldn't they? How about an earlier pod. After ww2 the allies want to remove germany from the map in a humane way. So instead of East and West Germany you have Saxony, Bavaria, Hannover, or whatever suits. By 1989 each has developed their own national identity so the desire for reunification isn't there?
 

nastle

Banned
The cold war's over. The iron curtain's coming down, Gorbachev's bringing freedom to Eastern Europe. All will be peace and harmony, the bad old days of dictators is past. Well, that was the spirit of the age and who cares if Germany reunites in this atmosphere? Well, just a few people who are living in the past.

So how would Germany not reunite? The only way is for the ermans to not want it. And why wouldn't they? How about an earlier pod. After ww2 the allies want to remove germany from the map in a humane way. So instead of East and West Germany you have Saxony, Bavaria, Hannover, or whatever suits. By 1989 each has developed their own national identity so the desire for reunification isn't there?
iTs not the people in my scenario but the communist party top brass and the army leaders they control who don't want to unite as they will lose their positions
 
iTs not the people in my scenario but the communist party top brass and the army leaders they control who don't want to unite as they will lose their positions

I'm going to be honest, I just don't see them pulling that off, bar a willingness to use force that would be at odds with their stated reforms.
 
iTs not the people in my scenario but the communist party top brass and the army leaders they control who don't want to unite as they will lose their positions
I guess thats what they wanted OTL anyway. But they got washed away by a revolution.
 
You need to reread history as you've written complete BS and show a source for Reagan saying something along those lines because according to the documents released from that time period there is NOTHING but a complete neutrality from Reagan and not wanting war at all;

This from the Wall Street Journal about declassified discussions released in 2012 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303816504577313852502105454


Two sources, one of them from George Washington university that also has a similar Reagan quote. But whatever, i guess a major research university is a BS source.

As i said, I can get more sources for you if you want. This topic is pretty thoroughly well analyzed in the US and UK.

You can squawk all you want about Reagan being neutral, but the historical records say otherwise


As to your source, the word "Almost" features in pretty much every line. The Reagan led government ultimately CHOSE to support the UK, that is evidenced in your own source (and the fact that they unofficially offered the UK an amphibious carrier, USS Iwo Jima, is a matter of record). So what is your point? Your own source lays out clearly that in the end the US chose to back the UK, at least tacitly. If your argument was secretary of sate Haig supported the Argentina claim, then sure, but Haig wasn't the one who was ultimately calling the shots was he? Reagan was and the US ultimately backed Britain, but politically and materially, regardless of "what might have been" this is what is recorded as what actually happened, and if you are confusing the two then you need to seriously do more research.
 
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As far as I remember, there was some revanchist talk from Hemut Kohl at the time, relating to the former German areas east og Oder-Neisse. I do not remember the details of this, but many people from other European countries were provoked by this. It did not exactly help to increase the support for German reunification to put it mildly...
 
Yes. Kohl needed a little pressure to reckon the Oder-Neisse frontier. But in fact he just needed to pretend being forced in order to give minimum symbolic satisfaction to the germans that had been expelled from those territories in 1945.
 
As far as I remember, there was some revanchist talk from Hemut Kohl at the time, relating to the former German areas east og Oder-Neisse. I do not remember the details of this, but many people from other European countries were provoked by this. It did not exactly help to increase the support for German reunification to put it mildly...
As far as I remember he made it pretty clear that these areas where lost. Perhaps some years before 89/90 he made some comments. Probably aimed at the refugees in the FRG. And later they where pulled out and taken out of context. Germany signed a treaty with Poland some months later and Kohl was a big driver behind this.
 
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