No german reunification

nastle

Banned
WI the east german leader relented and offered sweeping political and economic reforms and on the other hand opposed reunification.
That would also please france and UK , and US will probably relent to their pressure.Even the soviets would not neccesarily push for reunification as nobody wanted a resurgence of united Germany.
 
Ferreti

Ferreti

nastle said:
WI the east german leader relented and offered sweeping political and economic reforms and on the other hand opposed reunification.
That would also please france and UK , and US will probably relent to their pressure.Even the soviets would not neccesarily push for reunification as nobody wanted a resurgence of united Germany.
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Except for the Germans themselves, you mean?

Without a series of 1953 massacres and a continuation of the same hard line dictatorship, unification is inevitable.
 

Matteo

No. Unification is possible only if the winners of WWII agee to it. If not, Well the people of east Germany may keep on migrating to west Germany but not force reunification.
 

pompejus

Matteo said:
No. Unification is possible only if the winners of WWII agee to it. If not, Well the people of east Germany may keep on migrating to west Germany but not force reunification.
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Wrong. In the end, if the Germanans wanted to unite and the French, British and Americans didn't want them to reunite, the Germans would reunite even if it means worse relations with these countries. In the end they agreed, because they realised they wouldn't be able to stop the Germans and they wouldn't have the right to stop the Germans. The former allies should not intervene in the internal affairs of an independent country, not because of something that happened 50 years ago and is no longer relevant to the (then) current political situation. They obviously realised it and allowed Germany to reunify.
 

Matteo

You mean : if the germans want to be irrational and confront everybody else, then then will.

This is your point of view and I don't share it because it would prove the allies of WWII, that in fact Germany did not change and is still the problem of Europe. This is to avoir this that Kohl negotiated and never forced the allies to accept a fait-accompli.
 

Pomphis

Banned
Keep in mind that the west german constitution, which was approved by the US and british and french military governments before it came into force, provided a legal right for all east german laender to unilaterally join the FRG.

That a unification treaty was used historically was not because it was necessary, but because both west and east germans wanted to delay the taking of effect of several federal laws.
 

pompejus

Matteo said:
You mean : if the germans want to be irrational and confront everybody else, then then will.

This is your point of view and I don't share it because it would prove the allies of WWII, that in fact Germany did not change and is still the problem of Europe. This is to avoir this that Kohl negotiated and never forced the allies to accept a fait-accompli.
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Look it was more than 40 years ago. Sure the Britains, Americans and French do not have the right to intervene in the internal politics of an independent nation. It realy does not matter what happened 40 years ago. The Germans of the 1990's were not responsible for the crimes of Nazi Germany and should not be punished for it. If the BRD and the DDR wanted to unify it is their choice and noone else. Thinking anything else is ridiculous. Actualy I would even say that that kind of thinking was one of the causes of the Second World War.
 

Monter

Would America, France and Britain really take military actions against the reunification? Seems a bit extreme and not really intelligent.

Sanctions would hurt the EU as much as the FRG.
 

Alanith

Matteo said:
No. Unification is possible only if the winners of WWII agee to it. If not, Well the people of east Germany may keep on migrating to west Germany but not force reunification.
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What exactly are they going to do? Invade?

I doubt the western allies are willing to do so given that would be the death of NATO, among other things. And to be frank, I doubt the Soviet Union really has the ability with all the other stuff on its plate at the time.
 

von kressenstein

Banned
Alanith said:
What exactly are they going to do? Invade?

I doubt the western allies are willing to do so given that would be the death of NATO, among other things. And to be frank, I doubt the Soviet Union really has the ability with all the other stuff on its plate at the time.
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Considering the U.S. Military is already there .....:eek:
And the soviets in the east.. And France at the border .. And we'll Britain as Britain ..
 
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Alanith

von kressenstein said:
Considering the U.S. Military is already there .....:eek:
And the soviets in the east.. And France at the border .. And we'll Britain as Britain ..
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And again, if the Western Allies exerted any kind of military force upon Germany for the mere crime of reunifying it would totally destroy NATO. And the Soviets would set off World War 3 if they crossed the border into West Germany.
 

NamelesStatistic

Banned
I know Thatcher's Britain was opposed to reunification but I believe America wasn't, especially given that the new reunified Germany was given assent by the Soviets to join NATO. In 1989, nobody in the US is worried that a reunified Germany poses a threat to security in Europe, and indeed an economically strong, unified Germany taking the lead in pan-european institutions is quite in America and NATOs interest. Symbolically, German reunification on the West's terms in an important propaganda coup. It showed the superiority of the Western system and demonstrated Soviet weakness to the whole world. I cant imagine the US ever wanting to block German Reunification. I don't know how the French viewed this situation, but I would imagine they would approve if for no other reason that a unified Germany in NATO is better for their security. As in OTL Thatcher can complain all she wants, but she and the UK don't have the power to do anything about it, not with the Germans and Americans wanting unification and the Russians accepting it.

To be honest I cant think of a plausible reason for the decision makers of the West to move to stop reunification.

I guess the best POD to prevent reunification would be the Soviets taking a hard line, but the USSR has its own problems at the time as well, so I don't know how possible it would be for the Russians to realistically force the issue.
 
Ferreti

Ferreti

NamelesStatistic said:
I know Thatcher's Britain was opposed to reunification but I believe America wasn't, especially given that the new reunified Germany was given assent by the Soviets to join NATO. In 1989, nobody in the US is worried that a reunified Germany poses a threat to security in Europe, and indeed an economically strong, unified Germany taking the lead in pan-european institutions is quite in America and NATOs interest. Symbolically, German reunification on the West's terms in an important propaganda coup. It showed the superiority of the Western system and demonstrated Soviet weakness to the whole world. I cant imagine the US ever wanting to block German Reunification. I don't know how the French viewed this situation, but I would imagine they would approve if for no other reason that a unified Germany in NATO is better for their security. As in OTL Thatcher can complain all she wants, but she and the UK don't have the power to do anything about it, not with the Germans and Americans wanting unification and the Russians accepting it.

To be honest I cant think of a plausible reason for the decision makers of the West to move to stop reunification.

I guess the best POD to prevent reunification would be the Soviets taking a hard line, but the USSR has its own problems at the time as well, so I don't know how possible it would be for the Russians to realistically force the issue.
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Still, Kohl can pribe them. Money doesn't matter for him. He saw this as a chance for him to go down in history as the Kanzler der Einheit.
 

NamelesStatistic

Banned
Ferreti said:
Still, Kohl can pribe them. Money doesn't matter for him. He saw this as a chance for him to go down in history as the Kanzler der Einheit.
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As history showed us, he didn't even have to bribe them (that's what you meant right?). Really German reunification was in German hands. If it were to be blocked it would likely be on that end. Even if reunification was blocked in 1989, presumably the issue would come up again after the Soviet Union fell in 1991 and in those conditions it would be hard to see anyone stopping it.
 

NamelesStatistic

Banned
Just found this article, suggesting that both Thatcher and French President Mitterrand both feared an reunified Germany (although the latter got over it much sooner).

http://www.spiegel.de/international...nification-the-germans-are-back-a-648364.html

Seems kind of odd that the leaders of France and the UK would still be worried about possible German aggression in the lat 80s and early 90s. Anyway, as both eventually realized the decision was not in their hands (it was in the hands of the Russians, Americans and Germans themselves) and to his credit Mitterrand tried to incorporate Germany in European institutions as much as possible once he realized that reunification was inevitable.
 

Matteo

pompejus said:
Look it was more than 40 years ago. Sure the Britains, Americans and French do not have the right to intervene in the internal politics of an independent nation. It realy does not matter what happened 40 years ago. The Germans of the 1990's were not responsible for the crimes of Nazi Germany and should not be punished for it. If the BRD and the DDR wanted to unify it is their choice and noone else. Thinking anything else is ridiculous. Actualy I would even say that that kind of thinking was one of the causes of the Second World War.
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Germany was not a sovereign nation like others. It was refounded under the tutelage of the allies. The germans who were just children in 1939 were not personally responsible for the crimes of nazi Germany. But Germany was responsible for the crimes of nazi Germany.

That's why Germany, although It had become a peace full democracy, both legally (treaties) and politically, needed the agreement of the allies who had won WWII, that is the US, the USSR/Russia, Britain and France.

If Germany had not, then It would have given the signal that It definitly had remained a rogue State.

Since Germany no longer was and no longer wanted to be s'en as a rogue State, then it refused to act unilaterally. This is why Kohl was a great Statesman, a Man of peace and cooperation, who knew how to serve his national interests without antagonizing the other countries. He had a sense of History and after the best way for everybody, Germany first of all.
 

pompejus

Matteo said:
Germany was not a sovereign nation like others. It was refounded under the tutelage of the allies. The germans who were just children in 1939 were not personally responsible for the crimes of nazi Germany. But Germany was responsible for the crimes of nazi Germany.

That's why Germany, although It had become a peace full democracy, both legally (treaties) and politically, needed the agreement of the allies who had won WWII, that is the US, the USSR/Russia, Britain and France.

If Germany had not, then It would have given the signal that It definitly had remained a rogue State.

Since Germany no longer was and no longer wanted to be s'en as a rogue State, then it refused to act unilaterally. This is why Kohl was a great Statesman, a Man of peace and cooperation, who knew how to serve his national interests without antagonizing the other countries. He had a sense of History and after the best way for everybody, Germany first of all.
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Bullshit. 1990's Germany was an independent state and everything that happened in the second world watr had no relation to it. If the former allies would have opposed reunification it would have been basicly (I am not sure if it is the correct word, but English is a foreign language to me) a crime aginst the German people. If the allies opposed reunification they would have lost any moral high ground they might have had and basicly decided, they didn't give a damn about the German people or their rights and they simply wanted petty revenge because of crimes they did not commit. It would prove that they would intervene in the internal politics of a sovereign nation, just because they would do something, they did not like.
 

nastle

Banned
Monter said:
Would America, France and Britain really take military actions against the reunification? Seems a bit extreme and not really intelligent.

Sanctions would hurt the EU as much as the FRG.
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No the whole world would hate them for it, there is no justification
 
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