No Genghis Khan TL

This is just a rudimentry outline

POD: Genghis Khan dies in 1180

1180-1300Due to butterflies Saladin dies of illness in 1184. Jerusalem not retaken by Muslims. No Second Crusade. King Henry II lives longer and retains his French lands. Richard I without Crusade lives longer and remains competant, so no Magna Carta. Southren Song and Goryeo also remain undisturbed by Mongols. There is no sack of Constantinople without Fourth Crusade and Byzantium revitalizes in the 13th century. In the 1280s a Magna Carta equiavalent is signed.
1300-1400: England gains the French throne through marriage and Anglo-France powerful as the Holy Roman Empire. European-Byzantine army crushes Turks once and for all. Byzantium reconquers much of Middle East and Anatolia. Revitalized Byzantium conquers Grenada in Spain establishing a toe-hold in Western Europe. No Black Plauges so no disaster which set back Europe. Southern Song develops firearms reconquers Northen China.
1400-1500: New military dyanasty rises in Korea, conquers Manchuria. Song falls after a century of revitalization and Northen China is conquered by Korea. Marriage gives Anglo-France Scandanavia. In 1437 America is discovered by Byzantine explorers and they establish colonies throughout the Americas along with Anglo-France and other countries. Without Black Plague to unite Catholic Church earlier Protestent movements rise. Protestants exiled to Americas, called Nova Europa in TTL. Byzantium conquers Holy Land and Arabia, Islamic World cut in two.
1500-1600: Korea conquers the remainder of China and Japan. Korean ships discover America in 1512 contacts European colonies there. Most of Anglo-France by now Protestant equivalent. Anglo-French and Byzantine armies begin eating away at the Holy Roman Empire. Conquests of India, Australia, East Indies, Australia begun by Korea, Byzantium, Anglo-France
1600-1700: Byzantium conquers Egypt. Former empire of 700 restored. Industrial Revolution begins in 1680s. Last Holy Roman Emperor abdicates.
1700-1800: The Industrial Age in full swing. Tri-Polar world of Korea, Anglo-France, and Byzantium firmly established. Several wars between the 3 powers end in draw.
1800-1900: Industrial War begins in 1825 and ends in 1837. A 100 million people die in the war. Atomic Bombs are invented ending the war in a draw. Democratic movements begin throughout the world. Democratic movements seize power in several countries in Europe and Africa. Democratic countries form Democratic Alliance
1900-2008: The War Without War continues. Colonies on Luna,Mars,and Gandymane established. The Triple Balance with minor countries and the Democratic Alliance on the side is formalized.
So how do you think? Plausible?
 
:confused:

I'm sorry, I hate when people step on Alt-Histories by just stating detailed fact but seriously, no Saladin- so what? The egyptians were still hell bent on rconquering the Levant. No Genghis doesnt stop a virus mutating and wiping out 30% of the Eurasian population, might change it but still similar.

no Genghis also doesnt make the Byzantines Atlantic explorers or the Koreans(!?) world conquerers. Also the migration of the Seljuk Turks is debatable in this timeline so I dont think the Europeans or Byzantines would care.
 
Slow down there, sport.

1180-1300Due to butterflies Saladin dies of illness in 1184. Jerusalem not retaken by Muslims. No Second Crusade. King Henry II lives longer and retains his French lands. Richard I without Crusade lives longer and remains competant, so no Magna Carta. Southren Song and Goryeo also remain undisturbed by Mongols. There is no sack of Constantinople without Fourth Crusade and Byzantium revitalizes in the 13th century. In the 1280s a Magna Carta equiavalent is signed.

Giving Saladin a spontaneous illness seems to be much more important to your TL than the loss of Khan, so I'm curious why you didn't just start here. It is reasonable for Jerusalem to hold out at least a little longer, but indefinitely? Remember, the Islamic World was far, far more decimated by the Mongols than the Europeans were, and without the invasion, they're going to make extra-sure the Crusader states are eliminated.

Also, assuming the Crusaders stay in control, the Byzantine Empire isn't getting spared anything; they're going to be in much more trouble than before. Muslims are stronger on one side, again, without the Mongol invasions, and if there's a serious Kingdom of Jerusalem going on from the Catholic Powers, they're not going to be too excited about a strengthening Byzantine Empire.

1300-1400: England gains the French throne through marriage and Anglo-France powerful as the Holy Roman Empire. European-Byzantine army crushes Turks once and for all. Byzantium reconquers much of Middle East and Anatolia. Revitalized Byzantium conquers Grenada in Spain establishing a toe-hold in Western Europe. No Black Plauges so no disaster which set back Europe. Southern Song develops firearms reconquers Northen China.

How powerful do you think the Holy Roman Empire was at this point? A mostly-ceremonial Emperor ruling over squabbling nobles isn't what you seem to be imagining for the United Kingdom of England and France. And granting everything that's come before, why would the Europeans (all of them?) band together with the Byznatines to fight the invading Turks? And would there even be invading Turks, without the Mongol invasions to push them out of Central Asia? And how do the Byzantines plow through Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt, Lybia, Tunisia and the rest of North Africa to pop up in Grenada? You can revitalize the Empire as much as you want, but this is a massively unlikely conquest, and one that would almost immediately collapse due to the resistence of some pissed off locals. Not least of them the growing states in Spain.

1400-1500: New military dyanasty rises in Korea, conquers Manchuria. Song falls after a century of revitalization and Northen China is conquered by Korea. Marriage gives Anglo-France Scandanavia. In 1437 America is discovered by Byzantine explorers and they establish colonies throughout the Americas along with Anglo-France and other countries. Without Black Plague to unite Catholic Church earlier Protestent movements rise. Protestants exiled to Americas, called Nova Europa in TTL. Byzantium conquers Holy Land and Arabia, Islamic World cut in two.

Marriage to who, exactly? A dynastic personal union is a pretty rare thing; and accomplishing it with multiple countries over the course of a hundred years is practically a miracle. Or did the Queen of England marry Odin in there somewhere? Also, the Byzantines would be the last people interested in poking around the Atlantic Ocean; they've conquered the Mediterranean basin in this timeline and would likely really be the masters of trade between East and West (which would almost certainly bring some diseases back and forth). And Anglo-France is going to be enormously occupied just trying to govern England, France, and Scandanavia. No sense in trying to plant a colony on the other side of the world for no reason.
And careful with the Byzantines; the Holy Land is still Catholic at this point unless you've left something out. And I have no clue how you imagine all of Islamdom virtually simultaneously giving up every scrap of knowledge they have about warfare and submitting to Byzantium.

1500-1600: Korea conquers the remainder of China and Japan. Korean ships discover America in 1512 contacts European colonies there. Most of Anglo-France by now Protestant equivalent. Anglo-French and Byzantine armies begin eating away at the Holy Roman Empire. Conquests of India, Australia, East Indies, Australia begun by Korea, Byzantium, Anglo-France

Are you playing some video game here as Korea? China and Japan don't spontaneously combust because "a new military dynasty" has taken over. And what are the Koreans looking for that gets them to North America in the first place, much less all the way across to the European colonies on the east coast? Also, there's some ground to cover between the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Lands, much of it probably engaged in some pretty nasty sectarian warfare now that you say Protestantism has arrived. Why would they get involved? How do they keep winning?

Also, India wouldn't be conquered for another 300 years in our time line - how would these three powers project force all the way over there, much less have any interest in Australia?

1600-1700: Byzantium conquers Egypt. Former empire of 700 restored. Industrial Revolution begins in 1680s. Last Holy Roman Emperor abdicates.

They had missed Egypt on their way to Spain? Okay. And I'm assuming the HRE was conquered? By England and the Byzantine Empire, neither of whom is Catholic at this point? Do they have tanks?

1700-1800: The Industrial Age in full swing. Tri-Polar world of Korea, Anglo-France, and Byzantium firmly established. Several wars between the 3 powers end in draw.

What lands are any of these three powers fighting over? And what do their millions of conquered peoples do while the armies are fighting thousands of miles away? Nobody's thinking revolution, independence, or anything other than loyalty to the tri-polar system?

1800-1900: Industrial War begins in 1825 and ends in 1837. A 100 million people die in the war. Atomic Bombs are invented ending the war in a draw. Democratic movements begin throughout the world. Democratic movements seize power in several countries in Europe and Africa. Democratic countries form Democratic Alliance

Any particular reason for the Industrial War? Who was fighting it? Why? Just for fun and bloodthirst?

1900-2008: The War Without War continues. Colonies on Luna,Mars,and Gandymane established. The Triple Balance with minor countries and the Democratic Alliance on the side is formalized.

When did the War Without War start, and what is it? Also, even given the fact that technology here seems to be 250 years ahead of ours (colonizing Mars and the Moon?), why is anyone colonizing Ganymede? Have they turned Jupiter into a star like Arthur Clarke said?
 
:confused:

I'm sorry, I hate when people step on Alt-Histories by just stating detailed fact but seriously, no Saladin- so what? The egyptians were still hell bent on rconquering the Levant. No Genghis doesnt stop a virus mutating and wiping out 30% of the Eurasian population, might change it but still similar.

no Genghis also doesnt make the Byzantines Atlantic explorers or the Koreans(!?) world conquerers. Also the migration of the Seljuk Turks is debatable in this timeline so I dont think the Europeans or Byzantines would care.

Some of the more weirder aspects of the TL are due to butterfly effects and the Seljuks were already in the Middle East a century before the POD.
 
Its your TL so you can put down anything to butterflies but the Koreans just casually conquering China AND Japan is just silly, also the Byzantines have no need to go into the Atlantic is the Turks are gone, as they have access to Asian markets- the whole point of Columbus going out there in the first place.
 
Slow down there, sport.



Giving Saladin a spontaneous illness seems to be much more important to your TL than the loss of Khan, so I'm curious why you didn't just start here. It is reasonable for Jerusalem to hold out at least a little longer, but indefinitely? Remember, the Islamic World was far, far more decimated by the Mongols than the Europeans were, and without the invasion, they're going to make extra-sure the Crusader states are eliminated.

Also, assuming the Crusaders stay in control, the Byzantine Empire isn't getting spared anything; they're going to be in much more trouble than before. Muslims are stronger on one side, again, without the Mongol invasions, and if there's a serious Kingdom of Jerusalem going on from the Catholic Powers, they're not going to be too excited about a strengthening Byzantine Empire.



How powerful do you think the Holy Roman Empire was at this point? A mostly-ceremonial Emperor ruling over squabbling nobles isn't what you seem to be imagining for the United Kingdom of England and France. And granting everything that's come before, why would the Europeans (all of them?) band together with the Byznatines to fight the invading Turks? And would there even be invading Turks, without the Mongol invasions to push them out of Central Asia? And how do the Byzantines plow through Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt, Lybia, Tunisia and the rest of North Africa to pop up in Grenada? You can revitalize the Empire as much as you want, but this is a massively unlikely conquest, and one that would almost immediately collapse due to the resistence of some pissed off locals. Not least of them the growing states in Spain.



Marriage to who, exactly? A dynastic personal union is a pretty rare thing; and accomplishing it with multiple countries over the course of a hundred years is practically a miracle. Or did the Queen of England marry Odin in there somewhere? Also, the Byzantines would be the last people interested in poking around the Atlantic Ocean; they've conquered the Mediterranean basin in this timeline and would likely really be the masters of trade between East and West (which would almost certainly bring some diseases back and forth). And Anglo-France is going to be enormously occupied just trying to govern England, France, and Scandanavia. No sense in trying to plant a colony on the other side of the world for no reason.
And careful with the Byzantines; the Holy Land is still Catholic at this point unless you've left something out. And I have no clue how you imagine all of Islamdom virtually simultaneously giving up every scrap of knowledge they have about warfare and submitting to Byzantium.



Are you playing some video game here as Korea? China and Japan don't spontaneously combust because "a new military dynasty" has taken over. And what are the Koreans looking for that gets them to North America in the first place, much less all the way across to the European colonies on the east coast? Also, there's some ground to cover between the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Lands, much of it probably engaged in some pretty nasty sectarian warfare now that you say Protestantism has arrived. Why would they get involved? How do they keep winning?

Also, India wouldn't be conquered for another 300 years in our time line - how would these three powers project force all the way over there, much less have any interest in Australia?



They had missed Egypt on their way to Spain? Okay. And I'm assuming the HRE was conquered? By England and the Byzantine Empire, neither of whom is Catholic at this point? Do they have tanks?



What lands are any of these three powers fighting over? And what do their millions of conquered peoples do while the armies are fighting thousands of miles away? Nobody's thinking revolution, independence, or anything other than loyalty to the tri-polar system?



Any particular reason for the Industrial War? Who was fighting it? Why? Just for fun and bloodthirst?



When did the War Without War start, and what is it? Also, even given the fact that technology here seems to be 250 years ahead of ours (colonizing Mars and the Moon?), why is anyone colonizing Ganymede? Have they turned Jupiter into a star like Arthur Clarke said?

A couple of points:
1. The Byzanties don't plow through all of the Islamic World to conquer Grenada. They use their sea-power to establish a toehold there.
2. The Byzantines discover America in TTL because the Anglo-French remain interested in Iceland and Greenland and those colonies don't declined like in OTL under Danish rule, so the Byzantines hear about Iceland and Greenland and so a mildly eccentric emperor sends a small fleet across the Atlantic.
3. Korea conquers China much like how the Manchus took over China in OTL. They stepped in a civil war and restablishing order most Chinese decided to accept their rule after some initial fighting like the Manchus.
4. Korea discovers America in an accident when a few ships are blown away to Pacific islands and northen Siberia. And the Koreans decide to establish a few outposts here and there and a ship from a Siberian outpost gets lost and arrives in Alaska.
5. A lot of the conquered people accept the rule of the Tri-Polar empires since they treat them relativly well.
6. The Industrial War happens due to colonial conflicts
7. War Without War is basically a Cold War which started after the Industrial War ended.
8. Gandymane is a large moon and there could be valuble minerals there.
9. This is a rough draft and will probably revise some stuff in my 2nd try.
 
Giving Saladin a spontaneous illness seems to be much more important to your TL than the loss of Khan, so I'm curious why you didn't just start here. It is reasonable for Jerusalem to hold out at least a little longer, but indefinitely? Remember, the Islamic World was far, far more decimated by the Mongols than the Europeans were, and without the invasion, they're going to make extra-sure the Crusader states are eliminated.

One person who would survive the "no Mongol invasion" would be the Caliph. How would his survival change the face of Islam?
 
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