No Final Solution

WI the Nazi's never decided upon how to deal with the Jewish Question? Adolf Eichmann supported the Madagascar Plan prior to the Wannsee Conference, Himmler even agreed with him saying "the method was the best, if one rejected the bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as unGerman and impossible." I'm not saying Jews would be sent to the area, but it would be kinda like Hitler's plans for Germania, something to do after the war ended.

Now this is not going to avoid any form of death to the Jewish people, but what would the impact be if the death camps never formed? Would it be great emmigration outside of central europe? More ghettos? More labor camps? Or would a simple bullet tend to be the method of choice? Wpuld the Nazi's be those wicked enemies during WWII, and not the most evil things ever to future students of history?
 
this was thier original plan but because they were losing and knew they had lost the war when they implemented the final solution. if they had of been winning the war they would have just kicked them out of europe and made europe juden frei
 
this was thier original plan but because they were losing and knew they had lost the war when they implemented the final solution. if they had of been winning the war they would have just kicked them out of europe and made europe juden frei

What? The Wannsee Conference where the Final Solution was fully decided was in January 1942. While the Germans could be said to be losing in the sense that it was sheer idiocy to have went to war with both the U.S. and the Soviet Union, this was the time that the Axis was at its strongest with victories on every front. If anything, it could be said that the Nazis thought they were winning handily and thus could spare the resources to exterminate the Jews.
 
THe decision would have to be due to an internal factor. There were Nazis who hated the Jews with rabid, exterminatory passion (Himmler springs to mind), those who were moderately indifferent (Göring is notorious for saying "I decide who's a Jew and who isn't") and those who were obsessed with them, but had no preformulated plans. The problem is that figuring out exactly who was what isn't always easy, giuven at how many levels Nazi leaders lied to each other, to the Allies, the public, and posterity, but it seems Hitler was in favour of the Final Solution, though not a strict devotee. If he could have been convinced to call it off to conserve resources by someone in his inner circle, the Allies would likely have liberated cramped and starving ghettos with millions rather than death camps with tens of thousands. But I don't think it's possible without taking Himmler out of the equation.
 
THe decision would have to be due to an internal factor. There were Nazis who hated the Jews with rabid, exterminatory passion (Himmler springs to mind), those who were moderately indifferent (Göring is notorious for saying "I decide who's a Jew and who isn't") and those who were obsessed with them, but had no preformulated plans. The problem is that figuring out exactly who was what isn't always easy, giuven at how many levels Nazi leaders lied to each other, to the Allies, the public, and posterity, but it seems Hitler was in favour of the Final Solution, though not a strict devotee. If he could have been convinced to call it off to conserve resources by someone in his inner circle, the Allies would likely have liberated cramped and starving ghettos with millions rather than death camps with tens of thousands. But I don't think it's possible without taking Himmler out of the equation.

As I understand it was not the Final Solution decided upon, and carried out not by Himmler by his underlings? So when you think about it Himmler could be more happy to play general with the Waffen-SS, then to stand over his men and use trains and resources to build death camps. For the sake of argument let us simply have the Final Solution be an after the war event, for when resources are plentiful, and slave labor isn't needed.
 
They may have decided on a course of action used primarily on Russian POWs. Thousands of jews would be placed in a large, exposed field without enough food or water during the harsh winter months. The areas would be guarded by barbed wire, attack dogs, land mines, and small numbers of heavily armed, viciously anti semetic soldiers. By spring, disease and starvation would have wiped out most of the victims.
 
They may have decided on a course of action used primarily on Russian POWs. Thousands of jews would be placed in a large, exposed field without enough food or water during the harsh winter months. The areas would be guarded by barbed wire, attack dogs, land mines, and small numbers of heavily armed, viciously anti semetic soldiers. By spring, disease and starvation would have wiped out most of the victims.
I think the OP was aiming for a POD where no extermination at all happened, not just a different kind of Final Solution.


but if the Final Solution didn't get implemented, the Allies are going to have a bit less to demonize the Germans with. They will still play up the anti-semetic stuff in propaganda, but not to the extent it was IOTL.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
No FS:

Jews, still discrimanated against, are moved into large ghettos.

TL progresses as usual, and instead, the Jewish rebellions are put down with massive casualties to the garrissons in the cities, and the war on the Eastern front demands more reinforcements than the ghettos do.

The Allies, seeing a massive possiblity of securing places inside Europe, away from 'Fortress Europe' sea-bunkers, decide to invest more heavily in higher-floating paratrooper training, something outside AA range?

Anyways, the soviets begin along the same idea, trying to get past German lines, and after sneaking in partisan jews to the German Air Fields as workers, they destroy much of the Luftwaffe.

Allies then have Air-superiority close to their grasp, and the partisans are able to make more strikes against AA structures and garrissons near their ghettos and countrysides.

Divisions of Canadian, American, British and Free French are paradropped in while partisans in Europe harrass the enemy on a scale not seen before. Retaking of France from the south is achieved, rather than from the North, and a Dunkirk-like invasion is held for a large amount of German troops who get severly cut off from any hope of going back to the Vaterland and want to go out with a bang.

The Wermhacht suffers worse losses than Stalingrad [Where the Russians perfected their own Air-drops and defeated the Germans with more casualties than OTL], due to the leaving behind of heavy equipment and bunkers of 'Fortress Europe'. On their badly-planned journey to Britain, they are strafed, bombed, shot by ships and then only 47% of thier initial [strike-back' force makes it to Britain, which is still trying to proccess all the Allied troops who are going to be put into France's southern beach-head. Needless to say, the Germans are soundly routed, many die trying to get away in the same boats they arrived in.

'Operation Market Garden', instead of an attempt to take the bridges before they are blown up, is instead a two-pronged attack at the Eagles Nest and Roads straight to Berlin.

Instead of our V-E ending, the russians get 60 more kilometres of land, giving the buffer zone of East German-West-Germany to Berlin about 120 KM.

Communism then beats back Democracy in the wars attributed to by games like Command and Conquer and Iron Storm.
 
What? The Wannsee Conference where the Final Solution was fully decided was in January 1942. While the Germans could be said to be losing in the sense that it was sheer idiocy to have went to war with both the U.S. and the Soviet Union, this was the time that the Axis was at its strongest with victories on every front. If anything, it could be said that the Nazis thought they were winning handily and thus could spare the resources to exterminate the Jews.


Hitler ordered the conference after the set backs in december of 41 with the russians he realized he had lost the war from that point on and decided to just exterminate the Jews since he had lost the war.

Also to wage the war was not lunacy just the methods he choose to use were
 
Interesting but the advances you have with paratroopers really has nothing to do with no Final Solution.

Hitler ordered the conference after the set backs in december of 41 with the russians he realized he had lost the war from that point on and decided to just exterminate the Jews since he had lost the war.

Also to wage the war was not lunacy just the methods he choose to use were

Hitler never ordered any conference. Goering and Himmler took it upon themselves to go about planning everything. Hitler wanted the Jews gone, but he never really said anything concrete. He never directly ordered someone to do X, Y, or Z. Heydrich sent invitations out for the meeting to be one December 6, 1941, but events caused the meeting to be pushed back to the 20th.
 
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do you really think anything on such a size would not have happend without his word ordering it

the invitation were sent out then but the orders got changed because of the losing of the war
 
do you really think anything on such a size would not have happend without his word ordering it

the invitation were sent out then but the orders got changed because of the losing of the war

Hitler wanted it to happen, but he never publically told anyone to start the Final Solution. The plan to deal with the Jews was left up to people under him, and as such a great deal of what occured was not set in stone.

Besides you comment that the Wannsee Conference was created in response to the December 41 set backs and yet the invitations for it went out in mid November. Himmler wanted a set plan to deal with the Jews in July of 41, so your arguement does not match up to what occured OTL.
 
having a set plan does make sense with otl but changing what the basis of the set plan is as the war changes makes sense.

The original plan as to the final solution was to kick them out of europe but as the war changed it became extermination.

And frankly there is no proof that hitler did not give orders or did not give orders alot of paper work and things were destroyed in the war
 
As I recall, the final solution actually evolved as a reaction to the failure of the original plan-- to move all the Jews to massive ghettos on the outskirts of the Reich. The Final Solution only evolved because that plan was logistically impossible and became more so as the war progressed. The seeds of the ideas that eventually became the Final Solution originally came from the governors of those provinces that received the relocated Jews, as space became more difficult to acquire and there was nowhere else to put them. These governors petitioned the Waffen-SS for permission to kill the Jews with no homes individually. They were sent special trucks with the experimental gas chambers that were originally tested on Russian POWs.

The only way for there to be no Final Solution would be to remove the original catalyst. Therefore, the transportation of the Jews completed itself in a timely and orderly manner. Deaths would now be attributed to disease and rebellion rather than systemic genocide, and would be seen as no worse than the English in, say, the Boer war.
 
having a set plan does make sense with otl but changing what the basis of the set plan is as the war changes makes sense.

The original plan as to the final solution was to kick them out of europe but as the war changed it became extermination.

And frankly there is no proof that hitler did not give orders or did not give orders alot of paper work and things were destroyed in the war

No. No. No. There was no set plan by Hitler, or the Germans on how to deal with the Jewish Problem. We can argue for years on if Hitler physically gave the order to start gassing the Jews, but without documentation to say so, I rely upon the theory that he ok'ed it, knew about it, and wanted it, but did not plan it. Some Nazi's like Himmler wanted right out extermination, others such as Adolf Eihmann was orginally in favor of the Madagascar Plan, Goering felt shooting anyone who looked at the Germans crossed eyed was enough.

In fact reread my IP. I did not say no Jews would be killed, I simply asked what the effect on history would be if the systematic genocide of the Jews did no occur. The Final Solution was not the planto kill all the Jews, but the method in which to do it.

EDIT: Also I believe a simple disagreement by the Nazi leadership is enough to stop the construction of the gas chambers. Just for the sake of arguement say everything occured OTL up to the W conference but no plan was laid out or agreed to.
 
So the Nazi leadership disagree and there is no plan agreed upon. Some of the governors may still have taken the initiative and began some program within their provinces in order to please Hitler, or because they knew what had been discussed at the conference and decided to implement their own plan, knowing that that was the ultimate aim of the discussion. For the rest.... the Jews are kept in concentration camps for the duration of the war. Disease still takes its toll, but the number of casualties is still far less than it was in OTL.
 
So the Nazi leadership disagree and there is no plan agreed upon. Some of the governors may still have taken the initiative and began some program within their provinces in order to please Hitler, or because they knew what had been discussed at the conference and decided to implement their own plan, knowing that that was the ultimate aim of the discussion. For the rest.... the Jews are kept in concentration camps for the duration of the war. Disease still takes its toll, but the number of casualties is still far less than it was in OTL.

Right, so what is the effect on the world? In this the Nazi's turn a blind eye to killing Jews, and put them in awful conditions, but is it in the same league as the gas chambers and concentration camps? I do not think so, so that paints an interesting image of Germany for the future. Does Isreal exist? Are the nazi's the evil monsters of history or those odd Germans? Do we see the Swatika flying on kids clothes like communist symbols cause it's cool?
 
I don't think that the Germans end up with the same sort of stigma. They'll still be condemned for turning the blind eye, but the concentration camps are nothing new, so they get nothing more than a slap on the wrist for that. The governors of the provinces which do actually kill the Jews are tried as war criminals and that's it. Israel is still created (the Zionist movement predates the Nazi regime in OTL, anyway) but much later, as it will be less urgent than in OTL. So less regional conflict with the creation of a Jewish state in the Mid-East that is less haphazard than the original. Scary as we think it today, we may well see the swastika in various groups as we do see communist symbolism, associated with fringe groups, but not wholly demonised.
 
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