No English and/or Scottish Reformations?

Hey Guys,

How could you halt the Protesant Reformations within both England and Scotland? I don't just mean stop the hiearchy from reforming the religion as that would still lead to instability if the masses converted, I mean more stop people from converting all-together, much like in Ireland.

Is it possible to keep 80-90%+ Catholic in both or one of the nations? Or is that ASB?

Also as a side note of all this - Could a Counter-Reformation have been succesful in either England or Scotland? Say under Mary I of England and/or Mary, Queen of Scotland?
 
The English Reformation can be butterflied quite nicely by giving Henry VIII a son (who survives) with Catherine of Aragon. The Scottish one is harder as it didn't really begin with the monarch rather than against them, but perhaps by making the Protestant Scots lords overstep their mark and attempt some kind of coup against the Catholics (the Scottish nobility was notorious for its scheming and constant plans to have rival nobles removed from their position, and they weren't afraid to manipulate monarchs as they did so, check out the Darnley Affair) then the result may be that the Protestants become persona non grata and are persecuted a little more, thus cutting down on their converts and forcing others into hiding. A Catholic England would likely help too.
 
There is no way to fully butterfly away Protestantism in 16th century England.

In brief, Protestantism, in either its Lutheran or Reformed threads, was popular among the newly emerging city bourgeoisie. The same is true in France, as the merchant class became very interested in the Swiss Reformation. Even if the Tudor Crown remained nominally Catholic, expect up to a quarter of English to become Protestant in one form or another.

I am also convinced that Jansenism, to one degree or another, would also appear in England. Jansenism was a strain of Catholicism that incorporated Reformation pietistic ideas within Catholic sacramentality. Even though the St. Bartholomew's Massacre in Paris turned French politics towards the Roman church institution, French Catholic theology was nevertheless immersed in Reformed thought. Ironically, the flourishing of Jansenism in England might bring the Jesuits to greater prominence. After all, the Jesuits played a large part in the re-establishment of "orthodox Catholicism" in France (i.e. the suppression of Jansenism).

Also, remember successive monarchial and republican French governments suppressed monasteries and seized monastic property without affecting the nominal practice of Catholicism in the country. The Tudors could remain nominally Catholic and seize monastic property under a number of pretenses.
 
There is no way to fully butterfly away Protestantism in 16th century England.

Yes: the "defender of the faith" title granted to Henry VIII was given because he was having to slaughter so many Protestants in the country. You'd really have to cause England to collapse as a commerical power to erode Protestantism's base. Perhaps a successful Spanish Armada?
 
Yes: the "defender of the faith" title granted to Henry VIII was given because he was having to slaughter so many Protestants in the country. You'd really have to cause England to collapse as a commerical power to erode Protestantism's base. Perhaps a successful Spanish Armada?

A successful Spanish Armada might not even be a block to Protestantism. Remember, part of the driving force behind the independence of the Low Countries from Spain was the great expansion of Reformed Christianity within Holland/northern Netherlands. Perhaps even more English might ally themselves with Protestant movements as a reaction against Spanish invasion.
 
I don't think either is possible in the long-term.
Whilst it is true that Henry VIII was a devout traditional Catholic who persecuted Lutheran thought until his death it is also true that aspects of Lutheranism appealed to him and to many of his subjects.
Even a healthy surviving son by Catherine of Aragon (brought up like Mary I) might not be enough to stem to tide coming from Europe (particularly given England's strong commercial ties with the Low Countries in particular).
I wouldn't rule out a more Calvinist reformation in the latter half of the sixteenth century in England.
Scotland's reformation (which was Calvinist) was tied up with Scots Nationalism and a relatively weak central administration with an absentee monarch - unless you butterfly those things away i think it is unavoidable.
 
Not sarcasm - the original title was given to him by the Pope. It was the Catholic faith he was defending from Lutheran heresy.

Yes but it was nothing to do with slaughtering Protestants. In fact he didn't really have many killed at all AFAIK. In fact when he was made Defender of the Faith there weren't really many English Protestants to kill, which is why I found your comments ironic. He got that title for writing a paper which denounced Luther's ideas. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Yes but it was nothing to do with slaughtering Protestants. In fact he didn't really have many killed at all AFAIK. In fact when he was made Defender of the Faith there weren't really many English Protestants to kill, which is why I found your comments ironic. He got that title for writing a paper which denounced Luther's ideas. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have long been under the impression he had actually killed a lot during his time, and that althought it was his tract was the "official" reason for getting the title, it was actually a nod in his vigorous executions. That said, this isn't something I'm especially confident on, so it might be something I was inaccurately told a while ago and have never had corrected.
 
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