No Dr. Morell

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Deleted member 1487

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell
Hitler's personal physician from 1936 was a quack that administered him a bunch of bizarre treatments that included E. Coli, heroin, cocaine, and strychnine among other substances, with the last being a poison that degrades the brain, heart, and nervous system. In his memoir General Guderian blamed a lot of Hitler's decline in decision making to the 'treatment' of this doctor. What if Dr. Morell had died or not getting involved with Hitler at all, how would that have impacted history?
 

Deleted member 1487

Who knows? He wasn't exactly a model of sanity beforehand anyways.
Sure, I doubt anyone would claim he was. In the less than reliable post-war German general memoirs it seems to be a theme that Hitler's decline was quite noticeable from 1939-44 before the assassination attempt that really impacted him. His erratic behavior and mania that is described in several cases even pre-war (one episode that seems to be confirmed is he actually started chewed on carpet when in an anxious frenzy in 1939 IIRC) might have been caused by the drugs he was being given.
 
Perhaps Hitler would have made more sensible decisions from 1941 and afterwards. The war would have likely still taken a noticeable toll on his health (depending on how long the war progresses), but he'd certainly be much healthier and more rational. It's uncertain if his war blunders were due to his drug-induced mind or just his megalomania, but it's more likely that he would have made decisions that are (at least somewhat) more reasonable than OTL. Disasters like Stalingrad and Barbarossa may be significantly downplayed or even shift in Germany's favor, or maybe not. There were other factors in Germany's failure during the war (like Goering and Mussolini) but Hitler having no drugs in his system 'could' play an advantage to giving the Nazis the upper hand.
 
Didn't Dr Morell get his hands on Mussolini, too ??

Yeah, but Mussolini didn't suffer from the same drug issues as Hitler did. Nor was Mussolini dependent on drugs. Yes, he did suffer late in the war due to an ulcer, his stubbornness to surrender, his paranoia and denial. But there's not much major evidence that Mussolini needed drugs, much less need Dr. Morell at all.
 
This article suggests those drugs played a role in early Nazi victories, most notably the Fall of France. In the long run, of course, their endurance ran out when they went up against nations more powerful than France had been.
 
Who knows? He wasn't exactly a model of sanity beforehand anyways.

It is too easy to charcaterize Hitler as just insane. He is a person WHO found his very own to semi-legal dictatorial powers and up until 1939 succesfully made fools of most other state leaders.
In the deterioration of Hitler, there is a distinct element of going from directions/strategy into tactical/micromanagement. Its remarkable to see this kind of deterioration from a person who had already established a succesful and working leadership style. The thing that drives someone towards micromanagement - the least rewarding kind of leadership also on a personal level - will be distrust in the subordinates, a feeling that they will not understand the instructions, and an incapacity to be turned around or take in advice. The two formers are clear symptoms of paranoia while the latter is a sign of declining mental capacity/stress.
Declining mental capacity and certainly drugs can precipitate all of these developments. Parkinson, yes it is possible to lead to these changes, but declining mental capacity is NOT an early symptom.

I think its very possible that we would retain the 1940's Hitler. Someone who believed he knew best regarding strategic decisions and believed he had the capacity to judge between different experts advice (eg. battle of France), but also someone who could be turned around (eg. not invading France in the winter 1939/40).
Lots of potential butterflies. Not cancelling Barbarossa (personal strategic conviction), not leaving the jewish people alone (personal conviction), but maybe going for the mediterranean first as suggested by Raeder? Maybe not going for the mediterranean at all, but going for Barbarossa first?
But in any case probably not micromanaging the generals.
 
This is way bigger than people think. Drugs seriously deteriorate the mind and prematurely age people.

however there is a reason Hitler was an addict to begin with. Usually there is something in ones personality that is destructive and simply killing of Morell won't get rid of it.

so, you would need Hitler to get addicted to something else with perceived health benefits or have him hooked up with a doctor who actually treated his problems and OCD properly.

the effects of non drug addled Hitler may be significant. He likely lets his generals make war decisions. He may not declare war on the US. There is an off chance he delays attacking Russia for one year, which may knock Britain out of the war and end the threat of a US entrance.

so, the effects can be war winning if it delays Russia, and long prolonging if it does not unless the butterflies allow for some easy pro axis PODs such as a more intelligent Leningrad siege or Nordlicht, and taking Stalingrad on the march. Properly withdrawing in winter 41 might have been enough to do it.

another big difference is Africa. Rommel's disobedience might have been den for what it was and Hitler might keep him on a tighter leash, which means Malta might fall in 42, which means the walliez probably go for France in 43 and skip Italy. If the axis bloodied Russia bad enough and overlord 43 fails there is a real chance of peace, though there is a much higher chance of Russia dropping out and the wallies commuting themselves to a peripheral campaign and strategic bombing, which means Germany is likely nuked into oblivion by the end of 45.
 
Those drugs also don't have much margin for overextension. If they did help the Wehrmacht overrun France so quickly, pressing at Dunkirk beforehand might have meant the soldiers collapsed before they reached Paris.

As for Hitler's strategies, if he were more rational he might have cooperated more with Japan instead of keeping them in the dark about Barbarossa.
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell
Hitler's personal physician from 1936 was a quack that administered him a bunch of bizarre treatments that included E. Coli, heroin, cocaine, and strychnine among other substances, with the last being a poison that degrades the brain, heart, and nervous system. In his memoir General Guderian blamed a lot of Hitler's decline in decision making to the 'treatment' of this doctor. What if Dr. Morell had died or not getting involved with Hitler at all, how would that have impacted history?

If you want a German victory the better what if is Morell kills Hitler after fail of France. That might open the door to a diplomatic settlement between Germany and UK. After all Hitler burned all of the bridges after Munich.

Michael
 

Deleted member 1487

If you want a German victory the better what if is Morell kills Hitler after fail of France. That might open the door to a diplomatic settlement between Germany and UK. After all Hitler burned all of the bridges after Munich.

Michael
I wasn't going for German victory, just curious what impact it would have on history without Hitler being hoped up on drugs and slowly poisoned.
 
When Ribbentrop and Matsuoka worked out the Tripartite Pact, Hitler ordered Ribbentrop to keep his Japanese counterpart in the dark about the upcoming Barbarossa. After Barbarossa was launched Hitler invited Japan to join in--after the Japanese had already committed themselves to an attack on the U.S.
 
It is too easy to charcaterize Hitler as just insane. He is a person WHO found his very own to semi-legal dictatorial powers and up until 1939 succesfully made fools of most other state leaders. In the deterioration of Hitler, there is a distinct element of going from directions/strategy into tactical/micromanagement. Its remarkable to see this kind of deterioration from a person who had already established a succesful and working leadership style. The thing that drives someone towards micromanagement - the least rewarding kind of leadership also on a personal level - will be distrust in the subordinates, a feeling that they will not understand the instructions, and an incapacity to be turned around or take in advice. The two formers are clear symptoms of paranoia while the latter is a sign of declining mental capacity/stress. Declining mental capacity and certainly drugs can precipitate all of these developments. Parkinson, yes it is possible to lead to these changes, but declining mental capacity is NOT an early symptom.

I think its very possible that we would retain the 1940's Hitler. Someone who believed he knew best regarding strategic decisions and believed he had the capacity to judge between different experts advice (eg. battle of France), but also someone who could be turned around (eg. not invading France in the winter 1939/40).

He wasn't insane. He had a vision: Germany returns to greatness/thousand year Reich. But you have hit upon something with the micromanagement; he feared someone doing to him what he had done to others, hence the compulsion to micromanage. He wanted to war to restore the honor that losing WWI took from Germany, that was his successful hook, but he lacked the experience to pull it off. He had a few lucky early breaks and then, once he's got the nation at war, he's expecting the Germans to be as batshit crazy about the idea as he is. Then he got sidetracked from just expanding Germany and expelling those who aren't to bogus racial theories (rebuilding an Aryan race from the Indian Subcontinent) and genocide (they weren't leaving fast enough).

He's having digestive issues from stress and not eating properly, he's having sleep issues, the thing to do then was call the doctor. Maybe you can find a real doctor instead of Morell, but I think given Hitler's obsessive personality, addiction is almost unavoidable. (Nowadays, Hitler could just have them set up his own personal meth lab....)
 
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