No Doctrine of Unconditional Surrender in WWII

CalBear

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To any pre-WWI mind the outcome of world war II would seem like all world leaders were replaced with absolute fanatics. I think in the 19th century there was a strong idea that civilized nations compromised when disputes arose. On the other side of the debate I think Truman and Stalin both thought that peace could only occur if the entire state apparatus of Germany was dismantled. They assumed that they were reducing the number of wars in the future by permanently ending the existence of Germany.

Hmmm...

Italy surrendered unconditionally in a most reasonable way. Unfortunately they were also occuppied by a bunch of most unreasonable Germans

Germany was ACTIVELY obliterating an entire racial group using industrial methods (and NEVER ran short of troops willing to do the work), with plans to obliterate a second ethnic group as soon as the Jewish situation was resolved. Is that the actions of a civilized state?

Japan was using civilians for bayonet practice, just for the hell of it, across mainland Asia. It worked PoWs to death, along with civilian internees. It conducted bio-weapon experiments on civilian populations in circumstances that would have made Himmler blink. The JAPANESE GOVERNMENT organized formal rape camps where kidnapped women were assaulted time and again, with the only hope for release being a grave after a "customer" went a bit too far. Are those the actions of a civilized state?

The Nazis and Imperial Japanese governments were not civilized states. Overall, their actions would have sickened Attila or Genghis Kahn at their worst moments. Virtually every individual who joined the SS voluntarily or worked with the Einzatgruppen units, even if under orders, were guilty of specific war crimes that carried the Death Penalty. The same is true for every Japanese soldier who handled prisoners (civilian or military) and for most who made use of the "comfort women". That the Allies didn't conduct wholesale executions post-war is one of the great acts of restraint ever undertaken by governments.

To allow them any sort of surrender at all was a remarkable gesture of humanity.
 
The same is true for every Japanese soldier who handled prisoners (civilian or military) and for most who made use of the "comfort women".

didnt the american occupation force in japan also make use of comfort women and didnt allow japanesse soldiers to surrender.:confused:
 

CalBear

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didnt the american occupation force in japan also make use of comfort women and didnt allow japanesse soldiers to surrender.:confused:


Gee, I guess I missed that part of U.S. policy. Exactly which part of the U.S. command was responsible for setting up building full of kidnapped women to be raped repeatedly?

Or, just maybe, are you equating the use of prostitution with the organized rape and murder of tens of thousands of women across Asia?
 
Gee, I guess I missed that part of U.S. policy. Exactly which part of the U.S. command was responsible for setting up building full of kidnapped women to be raped repeatedly?

i thought japan used recruting for that not kidnaping.
 

Deleted member 1487

There was an article on CNN's website last year about brothels in Japan that were set up after the war in which Japanese women were forced into prostitution. Here are a few articles about this practice as well as how US soldiers used Japanese sex slaves for themselves. This was not necessarily policy as the Japanese crimes were, but these things did happen.

http://history1900s.about.com/b/2007/05/01/wwii-us-soldiers-used-japanese-brothels.htm
http://archive.japantoday.com/jp/news/401843
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355292/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE1D81230F934A15753C1A963958260
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=62766
http://www.dollymix.tv/2007/04/us_army_tacitly_approved_enfor.html
 
There was an article on CNN's website last year about brothels in Japan that were set up after the war in which Japanese women were forced into prostitution. Here are a few articles about this practice as well as how US soldiers used Japanese sex slaves for themselves. This was not necessarily policy as the Japanese crimes were, but these things did happen.

http://history1900s.about.com/b/2007/05/01/wwii-us-soldiers-used-japanese-brothels.htm
http://archive.japantoday.com/jp/news/401843
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355292/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE1D81230F934A15753C1A963958260
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/inquirerheadlines/nation/view_article.php?article_id=62766
http://www.dollymix.tv/2007/04/us_army_tacitly_approved_enfor.html


As it often happens, the sources quoted mostly do not support what the quoter says they do.

One of the articles quoted actually has to say:
"There is, of course, an enormous difference in that the overseas "comfort women" were mostly Korean teen-agers who were dragged away from their homes and forced into front-line brothels. The Japanese women mostly volunteered, albeit out of economic desperation, and they were paid several times the going rate in ordinary brothels."

Another article does acknowledge that a US official in Japan wrote that:
“It is the belief of our informants, however, that in urban districts the practice of enslaving girls, while much less prevalent than in the past, still exists.”

Since these brothels were private enterprises, either entirely or, in some cases, having been established with _Japanese government_ subsidizing, the _occasional_ enslavement was carried out by private Japanese citizens. Not by US occupation authorities.

Nor did the US occupation authorities tolerate that. What all articles mention is that, while the Japanese occupation authorities in China and elsewhere were perfectly happy with brothels fully "crewed" by slaves, and kept them running, the US occupation authorities eventually ordered the brothels to be off limits for US servicemen.
 

Deleted member 1487

If you read carefully what I wrote, my statements agree with the selective quotes that you pulled. I never stated that the US created these brothels, just that they used them. Other articles were about slaves that the Japanese used, were then in turn used by US servicemen. You are correct in stating that in most cases they were closed in 1946 by Mcarthur, however, in others it states that they were tacitly approved by authorities who ignored what was going on until later. What the US did was not comparable with what the Japanese were doing, but you did not and cannot deny that it HAPPENDED.
 
If you read carefully what I wrote, my statements agree with the selective quotes that you pulled. I never stated that the US created these brothels, just that they used them. Other articles were about slaves that the Japanese used, were then in turn used by US servicemen. You are correct in stating that in most cases they were closed in 1946 by Mcarthur, however, in others it states that they were tacitly approved by authorities who ignored what was going on until later. What the US did was not comparable with what the Japanese were doing, but you did not and cannot deny that it HAPPENDED.

I read carefully what you wrote and I stand by my previous statement; they _mostly_ don't support what you claim they do. By the way, some of the articles are now not available, some go to blogs which discuss the same articles, and two of the links go to the same article. Enough said. Anybody can go and read what he can find for himself.
 
my first thought on this was, "Would it have made any difference?" While Hitler was alive, would he have sought any kind of surrender? Would the Japanese seek any surrender terms so long as they have the Home islands? Putting aside unconditional surrender would only matter in Germany if Hitler was killed early on somehow. I know that the Japanese were considering surrender before the nukes were dropped, but not until after Okinawa was taken... that'd be the earliest they might ask for terms...
 
my first thought on this was, "Would it have made any difference?"

There isn't much indication of that in OTL.

While Hitler was alive, would he have sought any kind of surrender?

No.


I know that the Japanese were considering surrender before the nukes were dropped, but not until after Okinawa was taken... that'd be the earliest they might ask for terms...

What they were considering is better described as an armistice, drawn up in dreamland.
 
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