No Czechoslovakia, Czech or Slovak state at all

CaliGuy

Banned
BTW, one thing to remember: by 1920 there were over 600,000 first and second generation Czechs in the United States. They were especially numerous in Chicago and suburbs like Berwyn and Cicero. (When I visited the Berwyn Public Library a few years ago it still had a Czech-language book section.) So apart from his sympathy for small, Slavic peoples against Germans, Wilson (or any other president) would have domestic political reasons not to ignore the national aspirations of the Czechs.
Had Hughes won in 1916, though, would he have been as dependent on "ethnic votes" as Wilson was?
 
The friendship of Czechoslovakia with the Soviet Union came much later. As of 1918, Czech-Soviet relations were anything but cordial: "At the beginning of the existence of both states, their relation was bad. There was strong animosity sourcing from the armed conflict between Bolshevik authorities and Czechoslovak Legions and from the following participation of the Legions in the allied intervention against Bolsheviks. Moreover, Karel Kramář, Czechoslovak 1st Prime Minister, disliked the Bolshevik regime for personal reasons (his wife came from Russian nobility).

Czechoslovakia recognized the Soviet Union de jure not until 1934. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia–Soviet_Union_relations

BTW, one thing to remember: by 1920 there were over 600,000 first and second generation Czechs in the United States. They were especially numerous in Chicago and suburbs like Berwyn and Cicero. (When I visited the Berwyn Public Library a few years ago it still had a Czech-language book section.) So apart from his sympathy for small, Slavic peoples against Germans, Wilson (or any other president) would have domestic political reasons not to ignore the national aspirations of the Czechs.
This is an alternate TL and I never meant for it to be read that Czechoslovakia IOTL was pro-Soviet, PLEASE both you and the other post stop putting words or ideas into other people's posts! I said what Austria and Hungary MAY do, and they very well can fabricate evidence and use propoganda to show that *Czechoslovakian politicians were pro-Soviet and communist sympathizers in this ATL. OMG! Seriously I have to defend a single sentence that should have been clear.
 

Deleted member 94680

This is an alternate TL and I never meant for it to be read that Czechoslovakia IOTL was pro-Soviet, PLEASE both you and the other post stop putting words or ideas into other people's posts! I said what Austria and Hungary MAY do, and they very well can fabricate evidence and use propoganda to show that *Czechoslovakian politicians were pro-Soviet and communist sympathizers in this ATL. OMG! Seriously I have to defend a single sentence that should have been clear.

But it's not your TL, so the other posters thought you were referencing what you believed was IOTL.

If you want to suggest changes the OP makes to his TL, perhaps you could phrase it as such?
 
Not sure about how to do the Czech part, but AFAIK Slovakian national identity as such did not form until the 19th century, along with a more-or-less unified language. Butterfly that away somehow, so there is no "Slovak" national identity, just various Slavic communities spread around in Northern Hungary.
 
Not sure about how to do the Czech part, but AFAIK Slovakian national identity as such did not form until the 19th century, along with a more-or-less unified language. Butterfly that away somehow, so there is no "Slovak" national identity, just various Slavic communities spread around in Northern Hungary.
That's the thing. How? First codification on written Slovak was from 1787. But from 16th Century form of Czech called Bilble Czech was used in Slovakia. Firsts time form Slovak in today form was mentioned in 14 century.
Basically to avoid there will need to be either more violent Magyar takeover of region in late 9th early 10th century, which would couse great destruction to Slavic/ proto Slovak population on territories, partially them fleeing to Moravia or other Slavic entities, being killed, enslaved and eventually assimilated or even greater demages done by Mongols/ Tatars in 13th or total takeover of Hungarian kingdom by Turks. Last two would however mean very likely even greater destruction to Hungarian nation.
There is one more option. Poland stay stronger and keeps Spisz region given to them as hold as security against loan by Hungarian king. Spisz region is Polonized and there would be little direct.
Connection between Western and Eastern Slovaks. They may then develop as two much smaller separate Slavic entities or could be assimilated in greater degree into Magyar nation. If Magyar nation survived itself on scale being able to do so. Actually in 1918 and even I believe in 1938 Hungarians were promoting "East Slovak" nation in order to separate Slovaks. But that was already too late to work.
Also around year. 1012 Poland took shortly over todays Slovakia. Let them keep some of that. Population will quickly polonize due to proximity of languages and rest will assimilated mich easily with smaller population base.
 
That's the thing. How? First codification on written Slovak was from 1787.

And it was quite irrelevant at the time. "Codification" is such an empty word, well defined only in retrospective :)
There are many ways how to keep Slovaks from either 1) developing national identity or 2) being relevant on regional scale.

(1) can be easily achieved by more widespread literacy in early 19th century - since the literacy will be in Czech, and once your population is literate, it is difficult to change the language standard (basically this happened to Russyns).
Or the Catholics and Lutherans might not have agreed on a common language variant until too late. Or there would be a charismatic language leader in Eastern Slovakia who would create (and successfully promote) that language as distinct to Slovak. Or the orthodoxy might reach more to the west and there would be a rift in national feelings along religious lines (as happened with Serbian/Croatian). Or everything together :)

Or the magyarization might be a tad more successful and then you'd get (2) - a Basque-like situation in Greater Hungary.
 
Since most of the border anomalies have been solved, I have a few more questions.

1: Does Miklós Horthy still come to power in Hungary, if so what would he do since there are no large Hungarian minorities near the borders?
2: What would this assumed king Charles IV do in Austria? And would he oppose unification with Germany?
3: Due to that, could WWII happen because of an invasion of TTL's Austria?
4: Could we get a succession lineage going? (though I could make one myself)
 
And it was quite irrelevant at the time. "Codification" is such an empty word, well defined only in retrospective :)
There are many ways how to keep Slovaks from either 1) developing national identity or 2) being relevant on regional scale.

(1) can be easily achieved by more widespread literacy in early 19th century - since the literacy will be in Czech, and once your population is literate, it is difficult to change the language standard (basically this happened to Russyns).
Or the Catholics and Lutherans might not have agreed on a common language variant until too late. Or there would be a charismatic language leader in Eastern Slovakia who would create (and successfully promote) that language as distinct to Slovak. Or the orthodoxy might reach more to the west and there would be a rift in national feelings along religious lines (as happened with Serbian/Croatian). Or everything together :)

Or the magyarization might be a tad more successful and then you'd get (2) - a Basque-like situation in Greater Hungary.
Not bad. Like if Moravian and Silesian nationalism was bigger. But then we are getting in same issue somewhere else. Spoken language despite some differences was relatively close there was not really need for many different standards. Then we can go not just to Slovak, Czech Moravian independent nationalities but also Austrian, Bavarian, Saxon and many others. Dialect and accents are still there. But well that's to far away from my knowledge I will stop speculated right now.

But to charismatic leader in Eastern Slovakia. Have this guy been born 200 years earlier. :D
https://www.cas.sk/clanok/173272/jedinecna-publikacia-sarisania-maju-vlastny-slovnik/
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Or the magyarization might be a tad more successful and then you'd get (2) - a Basque-like situation in Greater Hungary.
That might actually work to some extent if WWI is completely butterflied away and if Magyarization continues at full speed throughout the entire 20th century. After all, unlike the Romanians, the Hungarians and Slovaks appear to be the same religion.
 
That might actually work to some extent if WWI is completely butterflied away and if Magyarization continues at full speed throughout the entire 20th century. After all, unlike the Romanians, the Hungarians and Slovaks appear to be the same religion.
Not entirely true. Slovaks were mostly Roman Catholics but Greco Catholics and also Lutherans. Htere were few Orthodox but that's was close to villages and regions inhabited by Ruthenians.

Problem with butterflying WWI is that already before that Germans and Hungarians were complaining Slovaks are fast growing and assimilating they neighbors - Germans or Hungarians where they achieved majority.
Of course there were not Slovaks High Schools or Universities before WWI - High Schools closed in second half of 19th Century by Hungarians. Funny think with uneducated population is it keeps growing. And many educated Slovaks still had possibility to study in Czech lands - Prague, Krakow or German universities. Actually on of most famous Slovak poet of late 19th and early 20th century studied in Hungarian Lutheran lyceums, almost got Magyarized and then switched his view.
In my opinion avoiding WWI may help Hungarians a bit but at the end it will be their doom anyway. Either Hungarians will want to separate from Vienna and Slovaks will become allies of Vienna or something else will happen.
 
Yeah, the Czechs were indeed a well-known ethnicity for centuries, so they'd definitely know about them.
And how. The HRE removed the right for them to vote on Emperor on the grounds they were not German about... six to eight hundred years ago?


Anyways, Wilson has to get a couple of wins. You got Czechs and Slovaks in the US who were for independence, and it did lead to basically the only non-dictatorship in Central and Eastern Europe in the period leading up to WWII. Not that people know that at this point, of course. Still, I can't imagine the Slovaks wanting to stay in a state with Magyar nationalists and the Austrians would would want to be closer to Germany, a situation the Czechs might not be wishing to have happen again, if thy are dragged along for the ride.
 
And how. The HRE removed the right for them to vote on Emperor on the grounds they were not German about... six to eight hundred years ago?


Anyways, Wilson has to get a couple of wins. You got Czechs and Slovaks in the US who were for independence, and it did lead to basically the only non-dictatorship in Central and Eastern Europe in the period leading up to WWII. Not that people know that at this point, of course. Still, I can't imagine the Slovaks wanting to stay in a state with Magyar nationalists and the Austrians would would want to be closer to Germany, a situation the Czechs might not be wishing to have happen again, if thy are dragged along for the ride.
There could be slight possibility if Czechoslovak movement during war was more only Czech orientated and Slovakia would be added as aftertought. War with Hungary in 1918/19 would be not popular among Czechs and had minimal suppport and Slovak National council would grab as a result Hungarians offers for greater autonomy. Slovak people were tired by the war, casaulties were high, in 1914/15 war did a lot of damage in Eastern Slovakia. But how to play it exactly to be it this way? Not sure. Maybe Stefanik dies shortly after introdicing Masaryk and Benes into Paris high sociaty due to his medical problems. Strongest, beat connected Slovak person in Czechoslovak movement in West is death and Slovakia will become for Masaryk only side game. Not sure though.
 
But to charismatic leader in Eastern Slovakia. Have this guy been born 200 years earlier. :D
https://www.cas.sk/clanok/173272/jedinecna-publikacia-sarisania-maju-vlastny-slovnik/

It's too late for East Slovak - if nothing drastic happens, it will go extinct relatively soon (I give it two more generations). The same for Russyn.

Actually, there is a second, kind of standardized, version of Slovak based on Eastern (Šariš) variant, written in Cyrillic, and it is actually used (but still heading towards oblivion). And I am really speaking about OTL. You'll get irrelevant bonus points if you know what is it and where it is used :)
 
It's too late for East Slovak - if nothing drastic happens, it will go extinct relatively soon (I give it two more generations). The same for Russyn.

Actually, there is a second, kind of standardized, version of Slovak based on Eastern (Šariš) variant, written in Cyrillic, and it is actually used (but still heading towards oblivion). And I am really speaking about OTL. You'll get irrelevant bonus points if you know what is it and where it is used :)
Definitely East Slovak dialect will go extinct. No argument there. With urbanization and 'proper" Slovak learnt in school generation after generation are using dialect less and less even in rural areas and in more and more "bastardized" form - only few words in sentence, mixing dialect with "proper" Slovak.
For second I will just guess. Former Yugoslavia? Somewhere in Vojvodina?
 
Definitely East Slovak dialect will go extinct. No argument there. With urbanization and 'proper" Slovak learnt in school generation after generation are using dialect less and less even in rural areas and in more and more "bastardized" form - only few words in sentence, mixing dialect with "proper" Slovak.
For second I will just guess. Former Yugoslavia? Somewhere in Vojvodina?
You guessed it. The so-called Rusnak language of Vojvodina is an archaic East Slovak written in Cyrillic alphabet
 
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