No Churchill

technically this should go in the Pre-1900 thread, but to me it seems more apropriate here, i'm sure i saw a site that said in his early childhood Curchill nearly died (fell of a wall or something...) not entirely sure how accurate that is... but he was born premature... so going with this as a POD

the prematurely born Churchill dies a month or two after his birth, to the sadness of his family

the question is what next?

there are a few things mainly associated with Churchill, so what will his absence cause?

1. Gold Standard thingy
2. Gallipoli (sp?)
3. TANKS!
4. WW2

and some other stuff... so what effects would his early death have caused seeing as he effectively never existed?
 
He deliberately jumped off a bridge and into a tree during a game, failed to hold onto whatever branch he was aiming for and then fell to the ground nearly killing himself IIRC.

He was also run over by a lorry in New York and nearly killed.

And he was of course a soldier in several wars so could easily have been killed in battle.

As to the consequences: immense, for Britain at least. Gallipoli and the Battle of Britain being the two obvious ones that could easily have gone differently and changed British history so far as to be hardly recognisable IMO.
 
He deliberately jumped off a bridge and into a tree during a game, failed to hold onto whatever branch he was aiming for and then fell to the ground nearly killing himself IIRC.

something like that anyway was what i read, and the one i was aiming for time wise
 
This is why I like Churchill because he could screw up history so much without him... day dreaming aside. Britain is doomed simple as that.
 
Reginald Mckenna remains First Lord of the Admiralty and a war staff isn't set up. Wilson remains first Lord of the Admiralty until 1914. There is no large scale deployment of troops during the rail strike in 1911.The Turkish battleships under construction in British Yards are not taken over and Turkey stays out of the war so there is no Gallipoli anyway.

The cabinet decides not to intervene in the Russian Civil War. Britain goes off the gold standard with Austen Chamberlain as Chancellor and there is no General Strike. In 1939 Stanhope remains at the Admiralty, there is no planned invasion of Norway and Germany srikes even more quickly. The Chamberlain government falls and a coalition is formed under Lord Halifax and after Dunkirk is evacuated, there is no attack on the French Fleet at Mers el Cabir. Britain reaches a settlement with Nazi Germany ceding a few colonies in Africa. Europe remains under German influence. Germany attacks Russia in 1941 and Britain is soon bogged down in a war trying to hold on to India. Up to the late 30's the changes would have been for the better
 
He was also run over by a lorry in New York and nearly killed.


had been a taxi...not that important just funny because the taxi-driver and him became friends and met a few times...
Imho the changes would be immense...without him Hitler could have won the 2nd ww...uah just don't wanna think about it.

btw there's a pc/xbox/ps game which uses the story, it's called Turning Point: Fall of Liberty
 
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had been a taxi...not that important just funny because the taxi-driver and him became friends and met a few times...
Imho the changes would be immense...without him Hitler could have won the 2nd ww...uah just don't wanna think about it.

btw there's a pc/xbox/ps game which uses the stor, it's called Turning Point: Fall of Liberty

I'm not 100% sure, but IIRC Roy Jenkin's biography claims that although that was the story Churchill told later, his letters whilst in hospital reveal that in fact Churchill was looking for a taxi and because the traffic was on the 'wrong' side of the road he was looking in the wrong direction and a truck hit him. Anyway, taxi or truck - minor detail, and Jenkins could be wrong.:)
 
I'm not 100% sure, but IIRC Roy Jenkin's biography claims that although that was the story Churchill told later, his letters whilst in hospital reveal that in fact Churchill was looking for a taxi and because the traffic was on the 'wrong' side of the road he was looking in the wrong direction and a truck hit him. Anyway, taxi or truck - minor detail, and Jenkins could be wrong.:)

Robert Cowley and Williamson Murray said/wrote taxi and I even found the name of the driver (forgot it and the page^^) an italian name.
But it's really unimportant although he was probably even more lucky if a truck hit him instead of a taxi^^
But they also said that he looked in the wrong way when he crossed the street and that it was his fault. Maybe he drank too much cause of the money he'd lost.

Zyzzyva said:
Sealion! OhGodthesealionsthey'reeverywhere... :eek: ;)

don't worry...the game is bad,unrealistic and germans below 18 aren't allowed to play it^^
 
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yes, getting back on track... i was eliminating Churchill as a child... so it's before even that that this POD takes place

i hadn't heard that siezing turkish ships caused turkey to enter WW1...

but yeah, i think most of the butterflies occur in WW1 (he also orcestrated the defence of Antwerp IIRC, which even though it failed, it did buy the Entente some extra time round about then)

not sure what the consequences for WW2 would be... perhaps there are too many butterflies....
 
not sure what the consequences for WW2 would be... perhaps there are too many butterflies....

GB gave up...Hitler wouldn't have had to hold troops in west and south,didn't had to conquer the south-east of europe and could conquer russia early and with more men. If Russia and GB failed maybe there had been sth like this:

fall_of_liberty.jpg
 
and i'm saying there are too many butterflies to know for sure

and why does everyone assume that Lord Halifax would take the job of PM if churchill wasn't around? the main reason Churchill became PM was that Halifax rejected the offer to be PM, because he didn't want to be remembered as the man in charge of Britain in a losing war
 
Seems like some of the replies have got in the wrong universe and are in the one in which he was run over in New York. Up to this time a lot of people would probably have pushed him particularly the Admirals, the Edwardian Chief Constables in South Wales as he was initially sympathetic to strikers. By 1926 the miners may well have done it. By 1945 only Hitler and maybe a few appeasers would have pushed him. By a strange quirk of fate he became the right person at the right time in 1940
 
GB gave up...Hitler wouldn't have had to hold troops in west and south,didn't had to conquer the south-east of europe and could conquer russia early and with more men. If Russia and GB failed maybe there had been sth like this:

Ok... if there's anything more cliché (WWII-wise) than a successful Sealion, its "Germany invades and conquers the United States"... :rolleyes:
 
The butterflies are huge because they impact the readiness of the fleet in July 1914, the production of the tank, the return to the Gold Standard, the General Strike, rearmanent discussions throughout the 1930s, the question of India and loads before you even get to 1940...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
in respect to the gold standard thing... wasn't that just acting on poor advice rather than specifically churchill himself?

but i do agree the major divergence point would be WW1
 
in respect to the gold standard thing... wasn't that just acting on poor advice rather than specifically churchill himself?

but i do agree the major divergence point would be WW1

Probably yes and yes :)

Would there have been a Gallipolli without Churchill ?

How important was Churchill the man with the vision in his munitions role ?

And that's before we consider whether Prince Louis would have given the same orders to the fleet on the eve of war without Churchill standing with him

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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