No christianity: Who would take his place?

Solar deities across the Roman Empire were not explicitly martial nor do they have to be. Various solar cults, most notably in cities such as Emesa, had nothing to do with the army.

Also if youre looking for a female deity with motherhood appeal, how about Isis?

Also Sol Invictus is likely butterflied, since that specific deity is entirely post-Christian. Who knows what a universal imperial solar deity would look like in a world without Christianity?
 
Who would take the place of Christianity?

Last year somebody posted the question once, how the Fate of the Seven would be received in real life history. How about the faith and mythology of Iluvatar and his song, the creation of the Valar and their music, Arda, the elves and Morgoth Bauglir as a fallen antithesis to Iluvatar ?
 
Last year somebody posted the question once, how the Fate of the Seven would be received in real life history. How about the faith and mythology of Iluvatar and his song, the creation of the Valar and their music, Arda, the elves and Morgoth Bauglir as a fallen antithesis to Iluvatar ?

I'm sorry, but that's ASB. JRR Tolkien died before the invention of time travel and there's no evidence he wanted to go back to iron age Britian and play ancient prophet. :p
 
No universal religion arises, but similarly to how Zoroastrianism was a monbotheistic nativist Persian religion, an Emperor Cult could become a monotheistic nativist Roman religion.
 
I think the lack of Christianity would lead to a Chinese type situation, with several competing v living side by side with a layer of ancient classical gods underlying the culture.

However, no belief system would have the inclination or the power to move north.

So I see Europe divided between a "Chinese" civilization to the south and an "Indian" system to the North where Norse Paganism remains dominant but not exclusive, the way Hinduism underlies Indian civilization.

Without the unity of the Christian worldview, we could easily have two (or more) civilizations in Northwest Eurasia, one mainly Classical and one mainly Germanic.
 
@Kerney You don't think philosphical schools would spread along with urban civilisation, much as happened in regions surrounding China? I don't really see why wealthy Baltic merchants and nobles wouldn't at least flirt with the philosophies of the wealthy south, adding their own twists to be better compatable with their own culture and religious beliefs and in doing so growing closer to the religious culture of their Mediterranean trading partners.
 
A question has occured to me, we oft speak of what would happen in Europe without Christianity, but what of Africa? How connected to the classical world was Ethiopia, and how would other parts of the continent be effected?
 
A question has occured to me, we oft speak of what would happen in Europe without Christianity, but what of Africa? How connected to the classical world was Ethiopia, and how would other parts of the continent be effected?

Judaism. Judaism everywhere. :p
 
I recall a previous thread in which it was suggested, unfortunately I do not remember by whom, that without Christianity the religious culture of the Mediterranean might look more like that of China, namely a traditional pagan belief system overlayed with a variety of philosphical systems. For example, an Alexandrian might pay homage to Serapis, Isis, and the other major and minor deities of their city, whilst following the teachings of the Neo-Platonists, while their neighbours might pray to the same gods, but instead follow the philosophy of Epicurus. Yet other neighbours might adhere to the Stoic, Cynic, Pythagorean or Buddhist philosophies, and, if immigrants might still worship the gods of their homelands. Scattered about you'd likely have small, somewhat insular Jewish communities, and there would likely also be smaller philosophical schools and deities that only found limited regional appeal. I see no reason why such a system could not remain broadly stable, much as Chinese folk religion has.
The other frequent suggestion I recall was that one should look to India for some idea of what might be.
Essentially this.
We could even expand this, given the Chinese trias of Daoism / Confucianism / Buddhism. There was already an awareness of what local folk cults across the Mediterranean had in common, and this awareness could have a) spread to the North and b) kicked back against overbearing philosophical and spiritual schools / tendencies at times. In one such time of revival, one or more such explicit syntheses of paganism may be attempted at some point in time.
It would doubtlessly have to coexist with philosophical schools which, to some, take the dominant role, while for others they`re less important.
And the spiritual insular communities, whose influence on the rest of society should not be underestimated, either, could come to include, besides the traditional mystery cults, Jewish groups like the Essenes, Buddhists, Therapeutists etc. also various later Gnostic communities and lots of newer developments we haven`t even thought of.

Both Western Antiquity and later Eastern history can show us how this coexistence and multi-layered culture can function and develop. Not without frictions, of course, but neither was Christianity.

What I find the most interesting challenge (and @Practical Lobster has written some good stuff about this) is HOW each of these layers (both a school of Pagan Synthesis, and post-neoplatonist philosophies, and late or post-Gnostic spiritual communities) could DEVELOP and influence Mediterranean society.
 
I'm a Christian, but I have to admit historically Christendom exists because Christianity was the state religion of Rome.

My honest opinion is that whatever religion Rome has will be the religion which stands in for Christianity ITTL.

Being that the Greek gods were losing their influence, I imagine an ATL Constantine would have adopted something like Mithraism or Gnosticism. He needed a religion that included the common-folks to unite his empire. Both of the preceding religions were too elitest generally. We cannot discount that someone would have come up with a simpler version that can include everyone. Being that Gnosticism was a melding of all Hellenistic and Oriental thought, I would bet that Gnosticism (sans Christianity) would win out. IOTL Gnosticism had normal followers. It also had a spiritual elite. It had ascetcs. It had it all. It just lacked a central prophet of sorts to unify it. Perhaps Constantine exalts an ATL Valentinius and makes his writings Scripture, and his priests the new clergy.

We would all be debtaing with each other today whether the cult of Monogenes has forgotten the importance of Sige, if the consorts of Sige/Monogenes/Logos/Ecclesia are simply symbolic, whether we are saved by gnosis alone and not works of the Valentinian Law, etcetera.
 
I'm a Christian, but I have to admit historically Christendom exists because Christianity was the state religion of Rome.

My honest opinion is that whatever religion Rome has will be the religion which stands in for Christianity ITTL.

Being that the Greek gods were losing their influence, I imagine an ATL Constantine would have adopted something like Mithraism or Gnosticism. He needed a religion that included the common-folks to unite his empire. Both of the preceding religions were too elitest generally. We cannot discount that someone would have come up with a simpler version that can include everyone. Being that Gnosticism was a melding of all Hellenistic and Oriental thought, I would bet that Gnosticism (sans Christianity) would win out. IOTL Gnosticism had normal followers. It also had a spiritual elite. It had ascetcs. It had it all. It just lacked a central prophet of sorts to unify it. Perhaps Constantine exalts an ATL Valentinius and makes his writings Scripture, and his priests the new clergy.

We would all be debtaing with each other today whether the cult of Monogenes has forgotten the importance of Sige, if the consorts of Sige/Monogenes/Logos/Ecclesia are simply symbolic, whether we are saved by gnosis alone and not works of the Valentinian Law, etcetera.
I highly doubt either of those would have become the state religion due to Gnosticism as often being seen as a Persian "fifth column" in later years, or did that mentality develop after Manichaeism became prevalent?
 
I'm a Christian, but I have to admit historically Christendom exists because Christianity was the state religion of Rome.

My honest opinion is that whatever religion Rome has will be the religion which stands in for Christianity ITTL.

Being that the Greek gods were losing their influence, I imagine an ATL Constantine would have adopted something like Mithraism or Gnosticism. He needed a religion that included the common-folks to unite his empire. Both of the preceding religions were too elitest generally. We cannot discount that someone would have come up with a simpler version that can include everyone. Being that Gnosticism was a melding of all Hellenistic and Oriental thought, I would bet that Gnosticism (sans Christianity) would win out. IOTL Gnosticism had normal followers. It also had a spiritual elite. It had ascetcs. It had it all. It just lacked a central prophet of sorts to unify it. Perhaps Constantine exalts an ATL Valentinius and makes his writings Scripture, and his priests the new clergy.

We would all be debtaing with each other today whether the cult of Monogenes has forgotten the importance of Sige, if the consorts of Sige/Monogenes/Logos/Ecclesia are simply symbolic, whether we are saved by gnosis alone and not works of the Valentinian Law, etcetera.

Well, just because one Caesar or another supports a particular cult or version of one does not mean it will prosper. Otherwise we'd all be Arian Christians.

Imagining how the Roman Empire would have gone on without Christianity, it seems more likely that those Gnostic mysteries and questions would be relegated to intellectual spheres while the commoners worship Isis-Hera-Cybele and Horus-Dionysus-Adonis or something. And all of it would be tenuously connected in a Neoplatonic atmosphere.
 
Well, just because one Caesar or another supports a particular cult or version of one does not mean it will prosper. Otherwise we'd all be Arian Christians.

Imagining how the Roman Empire would have gone on without Christianity, it seems more likely that those Gnostic mysteries and questions would be relegated to intellectual spheres while the commoners worship Isis-Hera-Cybele and Horus-Dionysus-Adonis or something. And all of it would be tenuously connected in a Neoplatonic atmosphere.
I just think GNosticism already did a good job of robbing prom pre-existing belief systems and melding all Meditteranean thought it can prove to be a winner given the Roman appetite for state religion.
 
State-based polytheism gradually evolving into monotheism for a variety of reasons, most notably a search for clarity and fundamental compassion and/or fundamental glory (in the West through to the Middle East). Perhaps Eurasia under the Vikings vs. Southern Europe and the Mideast under a mildly Dionysian Cult of ceremonial ecstasy and social harmony. So in the end, somewhere around India we get Father Odin/ Thor Christ/ Mother Freya confronting Hinduism and Buddhism. Does the philosophic underpinning of cosmic awareness of suffering and the emptiness of all human vanity become a vision of reward beyond in the hands of a crafty prophet of rage and vengeance? Or does a discussion settle the matter and the world stops evolving socially around 1100 CE? Weird but that's how I see it. Expansionism forces thought on Fundamentals. Rural peace does not.
 
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Why no Christianity? No Jesus Christ? Or a more successful suppression of the original 'cult' by the Judaic Priesthood?

But, no Christianity, no Islam.
 
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